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American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine #365834 06/22/11 04:44 AM
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Two Lungs Offline OP
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Pope Benedict XVI appointed apostolic Archbishop Thomas Edward Gullickson, titular Archbishop of Bomarzo, as nuncio in Ukraine.

The archbishop was born on August 14, 1950, in Sioux Falls (South Dakota, USA), and was ordained priest on June 27, 1976.

On October 2, 2004, he was appointed titular Archbishop of Bomarzo and the same day, the apostolic nuncio in Trinidad and Tobago, Bahamas, Dominica, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia and S. Vincent and Grenadines, reported radiovaticana.org.

On December 15, 2004, he was appointed apostolic nuncio in Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, Jamaica, Guyana and Suriname. On December 20 of the same year he was appointed apostolic nuncio in Grenada, also in the Antilles.

The post had been vacant since Archbishop Ivan Jurkovič was named Apostolic Nuncio to Russia in February 2011.


http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/catholics/vatikan/42447/


Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: Two Lungs] #365849 06/22/11 05:26 PM
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Would it have killed Rome to send an Eastern Rite priest as nuncio? After all, Ukraine is home to relatively few Latin Rite Catholics and is home to the largest Greek Catholic sui juris church in the world. Here we go again with cultural imperialism and the playing of politics. I know that my family history makes me jaded on this subject, but I really just don't get it.

Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: DMD] #365858 06/22/11 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by DMD
Would it have killed Rome to send an Eastern Rite priest as nuncio? After all, Ukraine is home to relatively few Latin Rite Catholics and is home to the largest Greek Catholic sui juris church in the world. Here we go again with cultural imperialism and the playing of politics. I know that my family history makes me jaded on this subject, but I really just don't get it.


And if Rome had sent a Eastern Rite priest, the complaint then would have gone "What does Rome think she's doing, SENDING a priest of a Sister Church anywhere???" This is Rome's representative. When France sends an ambassador to England, France sends a Frenchman, not an Englishman.

Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: Two Lungs] #365862 06/22/11 08:41 PM
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Another thing to remember is Rome just doesn't choose any priest/bishop for the position. They must have studied for the Vatican Diplomatic Service at the Pontifical Ecclesiastical Academy. Due to the shortage of priests, most Eastern Catholic bishops are unwilling to release their priests to serve in the diplomatic corps, so not to many Eastern Catholic nuncios. If memory serves I believe the nuncio to the Persian Gulf States is a Maronite.


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Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #365864 06/22/11 09:42 PM
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Fr. Deacon,

you are right that until December 2009, Lebanese Maronite Archbishop Paul-Mounged El-Hachem was Apostolic Nuncio to the Arab Gulf countries. In fact he was unsual in that he was not a Vatican diplomat, but Bishop of Baalbek-Deir El-Ahmar before he became Apostolic Nuncio. I assume that it was felt at the time that the Apostolic Nuncio to the Arab Gulf countries should be a native Arab speaker.

As far as I know, there are no Byzantine Catholic Apostolic Nuncios, but there are some Maronites and at least one Syro-Malabar. In addition to the already mentioned Archbishop Paul-Mounged Al-Hachem, there is Archbishop Edmond Farhat, a Maronite who served in many countries and ended his career as Apostolic Nuncio to Austria. Another example is Syro-Malabar Archbishop George Kocherry, currently Apostolic Nuncio to Zimbabwe.

It is important to understand that the Apostolic Nuncio is the personal representative of the Pope. Therefore the key qualification, apart from competence in canon law, is that the person who is appointed Apostolic Nuncio must have the full confidence of the Pope.

Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: Latin Catholic] #365868 06/22/11 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Latin Catholic
Fr. Deacon,

x x x x.

It is important to understand that the Apostolic Nuncio is the personal representative of the Pope. Therefore the key qualification, apart from competence in canon law, is that the person who is appointed Apostolic Nuncio must have the full confidence of the Pope.


Technically, an Apostolic Nuncio or an Apostolic Delegate is not the personal representative of the Pope.

He is a permanent diplomatic representative (head of diplomatic mission) of the Holy See to a state or international organization (e.g., the Arab League), having the rank of an ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary, usually with the ecclesiastical rank of titular archbishop.

By international comity and convention, the Holy See is considered a state and is a member of the United Nations. International relations and diplomacy are conducted between and among states not between or among heads of states.

Amado


Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: Amadeus] #365869 06/22/11 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Amadeus
Originally Posted by Latin Catholic
Fr. Deacon,

x x x x.

It is important to understand that the Apostolic Nuncio is the personal representative of the Pope. Therefore the key qualification, apart from competence in canon law, is that the person who is appointed Apostolic Nuncio must have the full confidence of the Pope.


Technically, an Apostolic Nuncio or an Apostolic Delegate is not the personal representative of the Pope.

He is a permanent diplomatic representative (head of diplomatic mission) of the Holy See to a state or international organization (e.g., the Arab League), having the rank of an ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary, usually with the ecclesiastical rank of titular archbishop.

By international comity and convention, the Holy See is considered a state and is a member of the United Nations. International relations and diplomacy are conducted between and among states not between or among heads of states.

Amado


I disagree. As is well known, the Holy See is not a member of the United Nations, but holds observer status. Also, the head of a diplomatic mission is indeed accredited as the representative of one head of state to another. Frankly, your understanding of international relations is flawed. Please read the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.

Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: Latin Catholic] #365870 06/23/11 12:11 AM
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JDC: Does the Nuncio just represent the Church of Rome and her Bishop or does the Nuncio represent the Church Universal? According to your argument, should there then not be an Eastern Rite 'nuncio' to Rome or Washington or Moscow? As St. Paul tells us, there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all

Father Deacon: There are many priests released to work or study at the Pontificium Collegium Russicum and elsewhere in Rome. The entirety of Europe and North America suffers from a shortage of priests. Are only Latin Rite priests so expendable?

Latin Catholic: Can it be that no priest or Bishop of the Eastern Rite has the full confidence of the Pope? After all, the late Blessed John Paul II had roots within the Greek Catholic tradition which he often wrote and spoke of. Over the decades of his Pontificate, it would not have been possible to train priests of the Eastern Slavic churches in the niceties of diplomatic service?

I mean no disrespect,and as one who regularly defends my brothers and sisters from the Eastern Churches from the typical untruths and misconceptions that many Orthodox harbor, I am honestly asking why you would not feel empowered to be involved in all aspects of the administration of the Catholic Church as a sister Church to Rome and one said to possess equal status with Rome.

Yes, Moscow (politically and religiously) would be angry if and Eastern prelate were appointed Nuncio. So?

In my heart, and perhaps that is where my words are coming from, it seems to me that in spite of Vatican II and in spite of many words about 'sui juris' and the following of Orthodox 'praxis' in the administration of the Eastern Churches, reality does not always reflect this to be the case.

This is one of the real obstacles which meaningful ecumenical dialog faces, at least in terms of the Orthodox. How can we Orthodox believe that any union would be any more real than Florence or any of the other attempts to heal our separated Churches since the great schism?

However our differences in theology and doctrine are minimized or redefined by the scholars and academics of both Orthodoxy and Catholicism, how can reunion gain popular acceptance, which will be needed to effectuate it, if real changes are not forthcoming.

Now, I know that I am framing the question from the Orthodox side and I am willing to listen to and respond to your reciprocal arguments regarding the behavior of my Church on many points.

If we were face to face, I feel that we all could be more forthright, but the nature of internet debate and the lag in time for responses makes me more circumspect.

Please forgive me, if I have offended. Thank you.

Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: DMD] #365871 06/23/11 12:15 AM
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DMD: I fail to see your point. I have just shewn that there are indeed Eastern Catholics serving as Apostolic Nuncios. But the idea that someone needs to be an Eastern Catholic to serve as Apostolic Nuncio to a particular country is obviously flawed. Frankly, your argument is not logical.

Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: DMD] #365873 06/23/11 02:22 AM
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Originally Posted by DMD
Father Deacon: There are many priests released to work or study at the Pontificium Collegium Russicum and elsewhere in Rome. The entirety of Europe and North America suffers from a shortage of priests. Are only Latin Rite priests so expendable


The shortage of Eastern Catholic priests, at least in America, is criticial. I am not aware of any priests of Metropolia on assignment in Rome. The Archeparchy has around 80 parishes served by about 50 priests, half of them over 60. Also you have to have seminarians and priests who want to enter the diplomatic corps and I don't think any of our young priests are keen on working in the Vatican bureaucracy.


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Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: DMD] #365874 06/23/11 03:08 AM
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Originally Posted by DMD
JDC: Does the Nuncio just represent the Church of Rome and her Bishop or does the Nuncio represent the Church Universal?


From what I understand, the Nuncio has an ecclesial role as well as a political role. To the extent that he deals with internal Roman matters (which is a substantial part of his job) it is fitting that he should be Roman.

Originally Posted by DMD
According to your argument, should there then not be an Eastern Rite 'nuncio' to Rome or Washington or Moscow?


Sure. Let's do that.

Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: Amadeus] #365875 06/23/11 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Amadeus
He is a permanent diplomatic representative (head of diplomatic mission) of the Holy See to a state or international organization


That isn't the whole of his job. He's also tied up in, for instance, the appointment of bishops. My own (Roman) bishop likes to tell the story of the Nuncio calling him to tell him of his appointment. Now if Rome made a habit of having Eastern bishops working as the Pope's district managers, we would have a different controversy on our hands here today.

Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: Latin Catholic] #365882 06/23/11 01:11 PM
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My point is not specific to the issue of Ukraine, per se, but rather goes to the Orthodox perception of the place of Eastern Catholics in the larger scheme of things, particularly from within the bureaucracy of the Roman Church. The OP expressed a feeling of pride that an American was named Nuncio to this important post. OK, that's fine, I was merely attempting to posit the proposition that a more radical and nuanced choice might have been an Eastern Catholic.

Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: JDC] #365892 06/23/11 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JDC

From what I understand, the Nuncio has an ecclesial role as well as a political role. To the extent that he deals with internal Roman matters (which is a substantial part of his job) it is fitting that he should be Roman.


The role of the Nuncio is to be the legate of the Holy See in a certain nation. He acts as an ambassador, and he provides information to Rome and from Rome.
He is usually a bishop, always a titular bishop, because from Pope John XXIII forwards it was considered more convenient, but his role by itself doesn't require any ordination.
Sometime he performs episcopal ordinations as representative of the Pope, but this is not his typical role.
Obviously in some part of the world where the Catholics are few, he can give also some pastoral help, but also this is not his own typical role.

So the Nuncio plays at a diplomatic level "infra nations", not at any ecclesiastic, jurisdictional or pastoral level. He is not a double of the proper ordinary bishop.

So the Orthodox shall not consired the nuncios as an obstacle to the possible and very future union



Last edited by antv; 06/23/11 07:45 PM.
Re: American Named as Apostolic Nuncio to Ukraine [Re: Two Lungs] #365893 06/23/11 08:17 PM
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I prefer the term "legatus"--good, solid Latin word with lots of great antecedents. Nuncio, for my part, sounds too much like the name of some two-bit torpedo for the mob shaking down local pizza joints for protection money.

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