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#366115 - 06/29/11 03:47 PM Re: New Cardinal Archbishop of Milan [Re: Latin Catholic]
antv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 187
Loc: Italy
if the next pope is Italian, card Scola is the one in pole position

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#366140 - 06/29/11 10:26 PM Re: New Cardinal Archbishop of Milan [Re: antv]
Apotheoun Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 2359
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: antv
Well the bishop of Rome can be born in Germany (but most were Italians), but the Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem SHALL be Greek: not a little difference. The fact that the (Arabic) faithfuls of a Patriarchate cannot elect one of them as own Patriarch, and this from centuries, surely affects the legitimacy.

Nope, not one bit, because as I said in my other post, it is not the man, but the local Church, that determines legitimacy. That is why I have no problem saying that Pope Benedict XVI is the legitimate bishop of Rome.

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#366147 - 06/30/11 01:47 AM Re: New Cardinal Archbishop of Milan [Re: Latin Catholic]
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 8894
Loc: Massachusetts
Mod Note:

Just in case nobody guessed that this would be coming, ...

The thread is titled 'New Cardinal Archbishop of Milan'

That's the News Topic and this is the News Forum

Anyone wanting to further discuss patriarchal usage as a styling in the Latin Church, open a thread in Town Hall. Any further posts on that subject which are made to this thread will be unceremoniously deleted - not moved - deleted.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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#366246 - 07/02/11 05:03 PM Re: New Cardinal Archbishop of Milan [Re: Latin Catholic]
malphono Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/17/10
Posts: 25
Loc: NY
Hopefully, the appointment of HRE Scola to Milan will be a boon in liberating the Rito Ambrosiano (Tradizionale) from Tetamanzi's chains.

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#366248 - 07/02/11 11:48 PM Re: New Cardinal Archbishop of Milan [Re: Latin Catholic]
Deacon John Montalvo Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 11/04/01
Posts: 1609
Loc: Scottsdale, AZ
Originally Posted By: Latin Catholic
The Ambrosian Rite shows some Eastern influence: for example deacons wear the stole outside the dalmatic, and Mass is not celebrated on Fridays during Lent.


Point of Information: Deacons of the Eastern Church do not wear dalmatics. Dalmatics were unique to the deacons of Rome (Actually the dalmatic was unique to the Bishop of Rome, and then it use was extended to the deacons, but that's a whole other post.) Now deacons of the Latin Church are able to use it. If deacons of the Ambrosian rite wear the stole outside the dalmatic, well, it must be unique to them.

I can understand how you would mistakenly identify our vestment as a "dalmatic,", even clergy in our Eastern Churches refer to the deacons ankle length vestment as a "dalmatic." Strictly speaaking the dalmatic hangs (approximately) below the knee and above the calf. Our vestment is actually a "sticharion" and corresponds to the Latin "alb," both of which signify baptismal garments. As such, deacons of the Eastern and Latin Churches wear the orarion/stole over the sticharion/alb. In the Eastern Church, the sticharion developed beyond the original white baptismal garment into the bright/dark vestment one sees today. The dalmatic, then, is an outer diaconal vestment unique to the Latin deacon.

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#366360 - 07/05/11 05:46 PM Re: New Cardinal Archbishop of Milan [Re: Deacon John Montalvo]
Latin Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/08
Posts: 1456
Loc: Norway
Father Deacon,

Thank you for this clarification.

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#366422 - 07/06/11 01:01 PM Re: New Cardinal Archbishop of Milan [Re: malphono]
antv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 187
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: malphono
Hopefully, the appointment of HRE Scola to Milan will be a boon in liberating the Rito Ambrosiano (Tradizionale) from Tetamanzi's chains.


This post is actually offensive towards Card. Tettamanzi and out from the true.

The Motu Proprio of Pope Benedict XVI involved only the Roman Rite, not the Ambrosian one, and it cannot by applied to the Ambrosian Rite (the issue is the use of the 1955 Ambrosian Rite vs the Ambrosian Rite as reformed in the '70s)

Further any decision on this issue pertains to the Head-Rite (the Archbishop of Milan) and the Holy See don't intervene in non-Roman rites without prior consulting the Head-Rite.

However in two churches (Gentilino in Milano and in Legnano) the Traditional Ambrosian Rite is formally allowed (by the Card Tettamanzi) to be celebrated each Sunday (with however a very low attendance).



Edited by antv (07/06/11 01:03 PM)

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#366431 - 07/06/11 03:46 PM Re: New Cardinal Archbishop of Milan [Re: antv]
malphono Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/17/10
Posts: 25
Loc: NY
Yes, I am well aware of the two outposts in Milan where the Rito Ambroziano Tradizionale is available. I've only been able to visit one of them. I didn't have time for Legnano. And BTW, when I assisted at Gentilino, the church was full. In any case, the PCED has been on record for some time now regarding the applicability of Summorum Pontificum to the Rito Ambroziano. http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/05/pced-declares-validity-of-mp-summorum.html


Edited by malphono (07/06/11 03:49 PM)

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#366436 - 07/06/11 05:51 PM Re: New Cardinal Archbishop of Milan [Re: malphono]
antv Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/07
Posts: 187
Loc: Italy
Originally Posted By: malphono
Yes, I am well aware of the two outposts in Milan where the Rito Ambroziano Tradizionale is available. I've only been able to visit one of them. I didn't have time for Legnano. And BTW, when I assisted at Gentilino, the church was full. In any case, the PCED has been on record for some time now regarding the applicability of Summorum Pontificum to the Rito Ambroziano. http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2009/05/pced-declares-validity-of-mp-summorum.html


That was the personal opinion of Mons Perl, never accepted by the Ambrosian Church and never formalized by any Roman document

However it is important to point out that it is true that the Pope has a universal jurisdiction also on all the rites different from the Roman, but this power is extraordinary, scarcely used, never without the involvement of the local hierarchies, and however it doesn't allow whichever secretary of whichever Roman office to rule on his own account and directly over different rites surmounting the explicit will of the Head Rite.

End of the story: Milan complained, and (by chance ?) after two months Mons Perl was dismissed.

PS the church at the Gentilino (I sometimes go) has about 40 people capacity, and you can always very easily find to sit.



Edited by antv (07/06/11 05:56 PM)

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#366488 - 07/07/11 10:44 AM Re: New Cardinal Archbishop of Milan [Re: antv]
malphono Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/17/10
Posts: 25
Loc: NY
Whatever.

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