Newest Members
Vinolentus, RusOrthCath, Cavaradossi, Roman Interloper, ftbond, NitaMacdonald1930, SOL, etomaria, Kostyantyn, Benny, Ivanov325, DocH, andria, Joe Smith, CanuckK8
4466 Registered Users
Who's Online
6 registered (sielos ilgesys, Thessalonius Monk, DogoCanario, Anthony, Tomassus, 1 invisible), 176 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Pascha Dublin 2012
Centennial of the Eparchy of Hajdudorog
Hierarchial Divine Liturgy at Holy Trinity Cathedral OCA SF
OLF: What a difference a day makes...
Easter Sunday - Pascha - Velik Den- St. Michael's, Binghamton,NY
Forum Stats
4466 Members
26 Forums
30164 Topics
373780 Posts

Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#366170 - 06/30/11 12:19 PM Re: Bishop Michael's Pastoral Letter on NY Gay Marriage Law [Re: StuartK]
JDC Offline
Member

Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 351
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: StuartK
Quote:
Is it a product of the fact that you Eastern chaps have spent so much time under persecution that you're willing to retreat from the public square so easily?


Aside from your remark being snarky and incredibly disrespectful, it's also wrong-headed and incorrect.

Refusal to be a party to abomination is not a retreat from the public square, but a clearing of the decks so that we might wage battle for the truth unencumbered by entanglements in civil law. If the state in effect redefines marriage to be something other than what we understand it to be, by acting as agents of the state we are tacitly acknowledging the validity of that redefinition. By refusing to execute marriage licenses (particularly in states where same-sex pseudogamy is recognized), we make an affirmative statement that (a) we do not recognize the state's definition of marriage; and (b) we reject the authority of the state to impose that definition upon us.

From a pragmatic standpoint, the disentanglement of the Church from civil marriage will protect the right of the Church to refuse the sacrament of marriage to those who do not meet its canonical requirements. You may think it impossible for the state to force the Church to, e.g., marry homosexual couples, or divorced couples or whatever, but a look at the trends in other areas such as requiring religious institutions to hire people who hold views antithetical their beliefs, or for Catholic hospitals to distribute contraceptives, or to provide abortion services, or for Catholic adoption services to bar homosexual couples from adopting, all point to an erosion of conscience exemptions when such run contrary to state social policy.

That said, a Canadian ought to be the last person talking about the Naked Public Square. Canadian politics is almost totally devoid of religious discourse, except when one of Canada's human rights councils is prosecuting someone for a hate crime for expressing what, just a decade ago, was uncontroversial Christian moral teaching.


Stuart, you misunderstand me. My question wasn't meant to be loaded with anything beyond the plain sense of the words. I ought reasonably to have seen this interpretation though. I plead fatigue and beg your indulgence.

I do not disagree with your take on the developing situation but I think you are not looking far enough. On the contrary, as a Canadian, I may be well qualified to comment "on the naked public square".

They are coming more zealously and more quickly than anyone in this discussion seems to think. Short of going fully underground, attempts to sidestep the coming martyrdom are futile and citation of paper freedoms is tragic and laughable (which position we seem to share).

You speak of securing freedom for the Church. Alas the only freedom that will shortly remain to us is to keep the Faith in spite of circumstances.

In fact, while I disagree with the prudential considerations of your suggestion, I don't really think it matters much to settle. The time where prudence will make much difference is past.

Top
#366172 - 06/30/11 01:12 PM Re: Bishop Michael's Pastoral Letter on NY Gay Marriage Law [Re: DMD]
jjp Offline
Member

Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 455
Loc: California
If we insist on civil government conforming it's definition of "marriage" to that of the Church, it creates a tie, enforced by law, between the Church and the State.

This tie should not cause concern because of the supposed danger of the Church taking over the State, but as Stuart points out, anything that the State touches will become corrupted - by the very nature of the State organism. We are not protecting the State from the influence of the Church, rather we are protecting the Church from the tentacles of the State.

It has happened before and it is only hubris or naivete that would prevent anyone from shedding the notion that it could not happen again.

Let us also consider - did Christ seek to conform Roman civil unions to the ideals of His Kingdom, or rather did he speak of the unique calling of His Kingdom? Is the holiness of marriage in the Church not it's defining virtue? Holy does not mean "good" but "set apart." Christ did not retreat from the public square, but He also did not seek to legislate it to mirror His Kingdom.

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2



Moderator:  Father Anthony 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright - 1996-2012. All rights reserved.