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Dear Anhelyna,

It seems to me that this Consecration is as if Our Lady takes us by the hand to lead us to her Son.

We turn back and say, "But I've sullied the Baptismal Grace I've received by my willfully committed sins!"

And our Lady tells us that we have her purity and holiness that she covers us with like a mantle of her Protection.

When our Lord sees us, He will see her holiness on us and will gladly listen to her intercession on our behalf as He did at the wedding at Cana in Galilee.

And so she guides us forward to her Son.

And He awaits us with outstretched arms - on the Cross and in His Heavenly Glory.

Alex

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Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Anhelyna,

It seems to me that this Consecration is as if Our Lady takes us by the hand to lead us to her Son.

We turn back and say, "But I've sullied the Baptismal Grace I've received by my willfully committed sins!"

And our Lady tells us that we have her purity and holiness that she covers us with like a mantle of her Protection.

When our Lord sees us, He will see her holiness on us and will gladly listen to her intercession on our behalf as He did at the wedding at Cana in Galilee.

And so she guides us forward to her Son.

And He awaits us with outstretched arms - on the Cross and in His Heavenly Glory.

Alex
Beautifully put Alex.

I know I really felt Her presence doing just that one very very wet May night .

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I've been giving some thought to the initial reason for this thread, expressed by Daniel. Is Mary the Mediatrix of ALL Graces, as Latin theology tends to assert? Is her mediation plenary, or is it of a more limited nature?

In reading back over these posts, a few thoughts occured to me:

1. As Latins, we tend to use the term "grace" in the sense of created grace, rather than uncreated grace. Perhaps some of the confusion regarding this title for the Blessed Virgin Mary stems from our differences in how we define "grace."

2. Our Blessed Mother is recognized as the Mediatrix of Grace in the sense that Jesus Christ was born of her. He received His humanity from her. Without her active cooperation and participation in the Incarnation, there would be no salvation.

3. We also acknowledge her role as an intercessor for us, a "mediatrix" who offers our requests to her Son. From what I can observe, this doesn't cause any problems to our Orthodox and Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters (although many Protestants, who might agree with #2 above, would balk at this point).

4. The problem arises when we Latins say that she is the Mediatrix of ALL graces. Daniel probably speaks for many who see this statement as detracting from the role of Christ as our sole mediator between humanity and God. Some may fear that this is giving too much glory to Mary - that it is putting her on par with Christ her Son, and that it is removing her from the rest of the Church. The difficulty seems to stem chiefly from the word "ALL".

Perhaps this analogy might be of benefit. We believe that Christ is the Head of the Church. But the Head doesn't exist without the Body (the Church). What connects the Head to the Body? The neck. Several of the Fathers refer to Mary as the "neck" which connects the Head to the Body.

Now a body can live if a limb is severed. But it cannot live if the Head is severed. Therefore, the Head stands in a unique relationship to the Body. The same may be said of the Neck. Without the Neck, the Head has no relationship with the Body. The Neck is absolutely essential, as is the Head.

Everything that the Body needs for existence comes from the Head through the Neck. The air we breath is first inhaled through the nostrils in our Head and makes its way down our windpipe before entering into our lungs (both Western and Eastern wink ). The water we drink and the food we eat first enter the mouth in our Head and travel down the esophagus into the Body, where it nourishes us. The Body itself carries out the wishes and intentions of the Head through the central nervous system; the messages from the Head travel through this system, and the perceptions of the members of the Body travel to the Head by means of this system.

And all of this passes through the Neck. All of the air we breathe, all of the water and food we receive, even that which is most "internal", personal and hidden - the relationship of the Head to the Body through the nervous system - passes through the Neck. It is the conduit through which the Head and the Body live in a relationship.

Admittedly, it is a simple and crude analogy (what would you expect from a simple Latin?). But to me, it explains how I can call Mary the Mediatrix of ALL graces. Everything I have received from Christ has come through her. Everything I offer to Christ must go through her.

"O Jesus living in Mary,
come and live in thy servants,
In the spirit of Thy holiness,
In the fulness of Thy might,
In the truth of Thy virtues,
In the perfection of Thy ways,
In the communion of Thy mysteries,
Subdue every hostile power
In Thy Spirit, for the glory of the Father. Amen."

Dave
"mere Catholic"

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Dear Dave,

Very good!

Orthodox theologian John Meyendorff (+memory eternal!) once wrote that just as Mary is the Mother of God the Word Incarnate, so too is she the Mother of the Church, the Body of Christ.

And here is where our St Louis comes in - just as Jesus chose to come to us through His Mother (and He didn't have to - He did choose to, however), so too do we come to Him by her as well.

It always mesmerized me that St Gabriel would praise Mary first, before praising the Divine "Fruit of your womb."

St Louis' work deserves to be pondered over and over again for all the truly evangelical insights it offers into this great mystery.

Alex

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:

St Louis' work deserves to be pondered over and over again for all the truly evangelical insights it offers into this great mystery.

Alex
AMEN and AMEN!

Do you think his approach would be well-received in the East?

Dave

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Dear Dave,

I think so, very much!

His emphasis on Christ as Divine Wisdom is especially Eastern - and he quotes from the Eastern Fathers all over the place.

There are Eastern icons of him, portraying him very much like St Seraphim of Sarov at:

www.montfortmissionaries.com

And some Eastern commentary on his spirituality on the personal comments page.

Alex

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Hmm...

God = All Grace (all Grace comes from God; only God is the Source of Grace, etc.)

Mediatrix of ALL Graces, to me, makes sense in the fact that Mary is a Mediatrix between God, Who was born of her, who is All-Grace, and man.

Logos Teen

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Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:

There are Eastern icons of him, portraying him very much like St Seraphim of Sarov at:

www.montfortmissionaries.com

And some Eastern commentary on his spirituality on the personal comments page.

Alex
Thanks, Alex! I've seen these icons on their website, and they're quite beautiful. Do you know if there is anyway to obtain copies of them?

Dave

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Pant, pant...

I just finished reading this looooong thread. One MAJOR KEY has been forgotten. As St Maximillian Kolbe has taught us, Mary's title as "Mediatrix of All Graces" is derivative of her title "Spouse of the Holy Spirit."

Since Mary's conception was especially grace filled and overseen by the intimate presence of the Holy Spirit (what could be called an "immaculate conception") AND the fact that the Holy Spirit overshadowed her womb and conceived the Incarnate Logos within, she is seen as having a special relationship with the Holy Spirit. So special and close is this relationship that it is mystically called "spousal."

The Akathist hymn testifies to this spousal relation, especially in the exclamation, "Bride Unbrided!"

Certainly every grace is mediated by Jesus Christ and APPLIED to us by the Holy Spirit. Yet, Mary's proximity to the Holy Spirit by her conception, divine motherhood, dormition, and especially her assumption bring her into the tightest and most profound union with Holy Spirit's activity.

Thus, what the Holy Spirit accomplishes and applies (every grace) necessary relates to the heavenly work of Mary. This is why every grace, so to say, "passes through her hands."

Hope that helps.

to Jesus through Mary,
Marshall

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Originally posted by Marshall:

Certainly every grace is mediated by Jesus Christ and APPLIED to us by the Holy Spirit. Yet, Mary's proximity to the Holy Spirit by her conception, divine motherhood, dormition, and especially her assumption bring her into the tightest and most profound union with Holy Spirit's activity.

Thus, what the Holy Spirit accomplishes and applies (every grace) necessary relates to the heavenly work of Mary. This is why every grace, so to say, "passes through her hands."

Hope that helps.

to Jesus through Mary,
Marshall
Very well said, Marshall! I hope we have some more discussion on this. I would especially like to hear from our Orthodox brothers and sisters on their understanding of Mary as the "spouse of the Holy Spirit".

Dave

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This thread is still going on? Dang, I thought Id say hello and thank you for your thoughts. Might as well make this thread 100 post instead of 99.

For me, I still think its Wrong to call here Medatrix of All Graces. Traditional Orthodoxy call it Heresy, and I tend to agree with them in there explenation of the reasons why.

In Christ
Daniel

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Daniel;

Some theology to ponder, from the Akathist to the Mother of God. The editing is by me so as to highlight the issues at hand, for the layout I was assisted by the guardian angels of Microsoft Word and Internet Explorer (they have a mind all their own):

Rejoice, you through whom creation is renewed. Rejoice, you through whom the Creator is born a Babe.

Rejoice, O seer of the ineffable Will. Rejoice, O surety of those praying in silence.
Rejoice, you the Preface of Christ's miracles. Rejoice, you the Pinnacle of His commandments.
Rejoice, O heavenly Ladder, by which God descended. Rejoice, O Bridge leading those from earth to Heaven.

Rejoice, You who enlighten the minds of the faithful.

and her fruitful womb He made a fertile meadow for all those desiring to reap salvation, as they chant: Alleluia!

Rejoice, Oblation for all the world.
Rejoice, Favour of God to mortals. Rejoice, Access of mortals to God.

Rejoice, Opener of the gates of Paradise.
Rejoice, for the things of Heaven rejoice with the earth. Rejoice, the things of earth join chorus with the Heavens

Rejoice, you through whom Hades was laid bare. Rejoice, you through whom we are clothed with glory.

Rejoice, you who have quenched the fiery furnace of error. Rejoice, you who enlighten the initiates of the Trinity.
Rejoice, you who have removed the inhuman tyrant from power. Rejoice, you who have shown Christ, the man-befriending Lord.
Rejoice, you who have redeemed us from the pagan religion. Rejoice, you who have rescued us from the works of mire.
Rejoice, you who ceased the worship of fire. Rejoice, you who saves us from the flames of passions.
Rejoice, Guide of the faithful to chastity. Rejoice, O Delight of all generations.

Rejoice, Uplifting of men. Rejoice, Downfall of demons.
Rejoice, you who trampled upon the delusion of error. Rejoice, you who censured the deceit of the idols.
Rejoice, Sea which drowned the symbolic Pharaoh. Rejoice, Rock which refreshed those thirsting for life.
Rejoice, Pillar of fire, guiding those in darkness. Rejoice, Protection of the world, more spacious than a cloud.
Rejoice, Nourishment, successor to manna. Rejoice, Minister of holy joy.
Rejoice, Land of promise. Rejoice, you from whom flows milk and honey.
Rejoice, Tree of delectable Fruit that nourishes the faithful. Rejoice, well-shaded Tree under which many find shelter.
Rejoice, Intercession before the righteous Judge. Rejoice, Forgiveness for many transgressors.
Rejoice, Robe of confidence for those bare of courage. Rejoice, Tenderness conquering all desire.

Rejoice, Key of the Kingdom of Christ. Rejoice, Hope of eternal blessings.

Rejoice, you who draw us from the depths of ignorance. Rejoice, you who enlighten many with knowledge.
Rejoice, Raft for those who desire to be saved. Rejoice, Haven for those who fare on the sea of life.

Rejoice, Pillar of virginity. Rejoice, Gate of salvation.
Rejoice, Leader of spiritual restoration. Rejoice, Bestower of divine goodness.
Rejoice, for you regenerated those conceived in shame. Rejoice, for you gave guidance to the thoughtless.
Rejoice, you who abolished the corrupter of hearts. Rejoice, you who gave birth to the Sower of chastity.
Rejoice, bridal Chamber of a seedless marriage. Rejoice, you who joined the faithful to the Lord.
Rejoice, fair Nursing-mother of virgins. Rejoice, bridal Escort of holy souls.
Rejoice, you who wash away the stain of sin.
Rejoice, Laver purifying conscience.
Rejoice, for you are the Throne of the King. Rejoice, for you sustained the Sustainer of all.Rejoice, you through whom creation is renewed. Rejoice, you whom the Creator is born a Babe.

John

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Dear Petrus,
I have read the Akathist excerpts you posted and I am not certain what you are trying to say.

Could you explain?

Michael
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I just rediscovered this thread; I hadn't checked it for a long time. Hey Alex- where on the Montfort site are those Byzantine icons of St Louis de Montfort? I couldn't find them. And Alex, you didn't mention that the "Eastern commentary" you mentioned was all by you! It of course contained the wealth of knowledge we have all come to associate with your postings here on the Forum. Thanks for sharing the wealth!

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Michael,

This is in regard to Daniel's (Byzantine Ascetic) assertion that he has a difficult time accepting the theology of Mary as Mediator of all graces. He also, very early on in the thread, uses the metaphor of Christ as head of the Church and Mary as the neck.

This is consistent with St. Romanos theology in the Akathist, Let me remove all nonessential words (although how can you say any are nonessential) so that you can concentrate on this concept as Mary as Mediator:

You through whom all creation is renewed


Rejoice, O surety of those praying in silence.

Rejoice, you the Preface of Christ's miracles.

Rejoice, O heavenly Ladder, by which God descended.

Rejoice, O Bridge leading those from earth to Heaven.

Rejoice, You who enlighten the minds of the faithful.

and her fruitful womb He made a fertile meadow for all those desiring to reap salvation, as they chant: Alleluia!

Rejoice, Oblation for all the world.
Rejoice, Favour of God to mortals. Rejoice, Access of mortals to God.

Rejoice, Opener of the gates of Paradise.


Rejoice, you through whom we are clothed with glory.

Rejoice, you who enlighten the initiates of the Trinity.

Rejoice, you who have rescued us from the works of mire.
Rejoice, O Delight of all generations.

Rejoice, Uplifting of men. Rejoice, Downfall of demons.

Rejoice, Rock which refreshed those thirsting for life.

Rejoice, Pillar of fire, guiding those in darkness.

Rejoice, Protection of the world, more spacious than a cloud.
Rejoice, Nourishment, successor to manna. Rejoice, Minister of holy joy.
Rejoice, Land of promise. Rejoice, you from whom flows milk and honey.
Rejoice, Tree of delectable Fruit that nourishes the faithful.
Rejoice, well-shaded Tree under which many find shelter.
Rejoice, Intercession before the righteous Judge.
Rejoice, Forgiveness for many transgressors.
Rejoice, Robe of confidence for those bare of courage.
Rejoice, Tenderness conquering all desire.

Rejoice, Key of the Kingdom of Christ. Rejoice, Hope of eternal blessings.

Rejoice, you who draw us from the depths of ignorance.
Rejoice, you who enlighten many with knowledge.
Rejoice, Raft for those who desire to be saved. Rejoice, Haven for those who fare on the sea of life.

Rejoice, Gate of salvation.
Rejoice, Leader of spiritual restoration. Rejoice, Bestower of divine goodness.
Rejoice, for you regenerated those conceived in shame.
Rejoice, you who joined the faithful to the Lord.
Rejoice, you who wash away the stain of sin.
Rejoice, Laver purifying conscience.
Rejoice, for you are the Throne of the King. Rejoice, you through whom creation is renewed. Rejoice, you whom the Creator is born a Babe.


You will note many "mediator" metaphors: bridge, key, gate, opener, raft, haven, opener,... the "nurturer" metaphors: Nourishment, Minister of holy joy, Intercessor before the judge, source of milk and honey, tree of delectable fruit,...

Now concentrate on the use of the word "you"

John

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