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#366807 - 07/16/11 03:11 PM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: sielos ilgesys]
Dave in McKinney Offline
Member

Registered: 02/10/10
Posts: 152
Loc: Dallas (McKinney), TX
Oh ok... Mater Dei likes to hand out literature and people put items on the cars in the parking lot...

The literature from teh church and what I found on my car was very "the world is going to hell in a handbasket" variety...


Edited by Dave in McKinney (07/16/11 03:12 PM)

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#366955 - 07/20/11 06:06 AM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: sielos ilgesys]
Father Deacon Ed Offline

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Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 643
Loc: Texas
From an official Roman Catholic standpoint, there is a significant theological problem with the concept of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces -- Latin theology says that the sacrament are efficacious ex operae operato or through the workings of Christ. This is why Pope John Paul never declared that dogmatically.

The title co-redemptrix for the Latins implies the same role as Eastern Catholics when we pray "O Holy Theotokos save us."

Fr. Deacon Ed

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#366966 - 07/20/11 03:00 PM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: Father Deacon Ed]
JDC Offline
Member

Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 607
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Father Deacon Ed
From an official Roman Catholic standpoint, there is a significant theological problem with the concept of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces -- Latin theology says that the sacrament are efficacious ex operae operato or through the workings of Christ. This is why Pope John Paul never declared that dogmatically.

The title co-redemptrix for the Latins implies the same role as Eastern Catholics when we pray "O Holy Theotokos save us."

Fr. Deacon Ed


I agree with the thrust of your post, and the distinctions you've made but that's not what "ex opere operato" means. The phrase means that the sacraments work by being worked. The sacrament comes into being and is effective by the very fact of the act having been acted, independent of the sanctity of the one performing or receiving the act. Google could probably explain it more succinctly than I have.

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#366978 - 07/20/11 08:30 PM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: Dave in McKinney]
Elliott Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/29/11
Posts: 3
Loc: Broome county, NY, usa
Originally Posted By: Dave in McKinney
There are certainly, in practice, times when Mary seems like a secondary savior for lay RC's. IMO there's too much emphasis on her in the RC.


She participated in our salvation by bringing our Saviour to us. She is like the Church, bringing Jesus to us but also birthing us into the Church through baptism. She is our mother. Being Mediatrix doesn't detract from Jesus. Jesus is so much higher than Mary, the more we elevate Her the more we elevate Jesus.
The concept is often described as Jesus the cause of graces is the head Mary the neck which passes those graces to us the body.

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#366986 - 07/21/11 12:28 AM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: Irish Melkite]
theophan Offline
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Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 5839
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
Quote:
I got a headache just skimming the site ...


Ditto. It seems to me that when people get bored with the ordinary practice of the faith they reach out for all sorts of things that are spiritually dangerous. There are all the superstitious little notes people leave in churches that promise all sorts of miracles if one but recites the attached prayer for so many days and so many times per day. There are the New Agers who "center" in front of icons in the middle of the night--got a group of them in my parish--and who pretend to be the next crop of mystics, receiving all sorts of deep revelations.

This just gives me a combo of nausea and chills.

Bob


Edited by theophan (07/21/11 08:38 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#366998 - 07/21/11 04:45 AM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: Elliott]
Nelson Chase Offline
Member

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 882
Loc: Fatherhood
Quote:
Being Mediatrix doesn't detract from Jesus. Jesus is so much higher than Mary, the more we elevate Her the more we elevate Jesus.


The question being where does it stop? Mary is important. She is our joy and hope. Her yes to God allowed for our Salvation. But she is not divine and some of these things coming from the Latin Church (although not the mainstream) make her semi-divine and it is scary for me as an Easterner.

Jesus is our only Mediator and Advocate according to Scripture. Mary intercedes for us to her Son. Hers is the most powerful intersession. Only Jesus saves us by His death. He is the only Redeemer.

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#366999 - 07/21/11 04:50 AM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: Father Deacon Ed]
Nelson Chase Offline
Member

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 882
Loc: Fatherhood
Quote:
The title co-redemptrix for the Latins implies the same role as Eastern Catholics when we pray "O Holy Theotokos save us."


Father Deacon,

I fail to see the connection? Most Holy Theotokos save us is not the same things as Mary being co-redemptrix. Mary saving us in the first instance is a cry for help lifting us to her Son. She points us to him. I always looked at it like I am in a ship sinking in a sea of sins. I cry for Mary to pull me up out of the waters through her prayers and her sons Mercy.

Co-redemptrix means that she along with Christ redeems us.Christ the Incarnate Word is our redemption not His Mother.


Edited by Nelson Chase (07/21/11 04:52 AM)

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#367010 - 07/21/11 12:08 PM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: sielos ilgesys]
JimG Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/10
Posts: 341
Loc: Texas USA
Quote:
The concept is often described as Jesus the cause of graces is the head Mary the neck which passes those graces to us the body.

While I certainly accept the very special place of Mary as an intercessor, I do not find this analogy helpful. It implies that all graces have to pass through Mary to us. It is clear that there all the saints can act as intercessors when we pray to them for help. And, of course, we can go directly to Jesus without an intercessor. Unless I am missing something there is no need for the intervention of Mary for me to receive graces via these alternative routes.

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#367013 - 07/21/11 12:37 PM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: theophan]
sielos ilgesys Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: Texas/USA
You mean to tell me there ISN'T a magic certain # of candles (you never know for sure what that # may be) you have to burn in order to get Mary or some saint to do your will? That making promises and vows to do such-and-such, or NOT to do such-and-such, might not result in God doing MY will?

Are you trying to suggest we are incapable of manipulating the Deity?

A lot of Catholics (and, I suspicion, Orthodox Christians as well) belonging to certain cultural groups would be mighty surprised to learn that!

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#367045 - 07/21/11 08:42 PM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: sielos ilgesys]
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 5839
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
sielos:

I had a discussion with my spiritual father many years ago about the idea of bargaining with God--promising Him something one would do in return for something He would be bound to do. He told me it was a dangerous thing. How dare we, the created, think we can gain some hold on God for anything? Beyond the thought is the actual sin of doing it. I know people who do it and it makes me shudder.

A suggestion was even made that when I ask for something/anything I should always add "if it be Your Will."

When I think about it, isn't this akin to God telling the Chosen People in the Old Testment that He cares nothing for animal sacrifices, tithes, etc. He wants contrite, humble hearts; acts of mercy (Hosea 6:6); generosity and other actions that show the fact that we are stewards of the good things He has given and that we are broken enough that we need Him more than He needs us. So all this other stuff is just a means to our acquiring the Holy Spirit of God, as St. Seraphim of Sarov tells us, it is not an end in itself or leverage in the spiritual world.

Bob


Edited by theophan (07/21/11 08:45 PM)

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#367048 - 07/21/11 09:47 PM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: Nelson Chase]
Father Deacon Ed Offline

Administrator
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 643
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Nelson Chase
Quote:
The title co-redemptrix for the Latins implies the same role as Eastern Catholics when we pray "O Holy Theotokos save us."


Father Deacon,

I fail to see the connection? Most Holy Theotokos save us is not the same things as Mary being co-redemptrix. Mary saving us in the first instance is a cry for help lifting us to her Son. She points us to him. I always looked at it like I am in a ship sinking in a sea of sins. I cry for Mary to pull me up out of the waters through her prayers and her sons Mercy.

Co-redemptrix means that she along with Christ redeems us.Christ the Incarnate Word is our redemption not His Mother.
The point is that this is not what it means. The Latin teaching on this is that Mary intercedes for us constantly. She does not share an equal role with Jesus in salvation.

Fr. Deacon Ed

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#367049 - 07/21/11 10:27 PM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: sielos ilgesys]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 7394
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
The point is that this is not what it means. The Latin teaching on this is that Mary intercedes for us constantly. She does not share an equal role with Jesus in salvation.


Nonetheless, the wording is unfortunate, and it would be a sucker bet indeed to say there are no people out there who do not think of Mary as the fourth person of the Trinity.

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#367072 - 07/22/11 04:03 PM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: StuartK]
griego catolico Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/01
Posts: 1228
Loc: Sunny California
Originally Posted By: StuartK
Quote:
The point is that this is not what it means. The Latin teaching on this is that Mary intercedes for us constantly. She does not share an equal role with Jesus in salvation.


Nonetheless, the wording is unfortunate, and it would be a sucker bet indeed to say there are no people out there who do not think of Mary as the fourth person of the Trinity.


So, does that mean we should not say "Most Holy Theotokos, save us." in order to avoid from people thinking we believe in a "Quadrinity"?

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#367073 - 07/22/11 04:20 PM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: griego catolico]
Nelson Chase Offline
Member

Registered: 01/13/09
Posts: 882
Loc: Fatherhood
Quote:
So, does that mean we should not say "Most Holy Theotokos, save us." in order to avoid from people thinking we believe in a "Quadrinity"?


Nope we should say it as the Holy Church prescribes but we should teach the proper, venerable, and Orthodox teaching concerning the Most Holy Theotokos and then we will have no problem with people falling into the "qyadrinity" heresy.


Edited by Nelson Chase (07/22/11 04:21 PM)

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#367379 - 08/01/11 12:46 AM Re: Icon: "Our Lady Mediatrix of All Graces" [Re: JDC]
Father Deacon Ed Offline

Administrator
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 643
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: JDC
Originally Posted By: Father Deacon Ed
From an official Roman Catholic standpoint, there is a significant theological problem with the concept of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces -- Latin theology says that the sacrament are efficacious ex operae operato or through the workings of Christ. This is why Pope John Paul never declared that dogmatically.

The title co-redemptrix for the Latins implies the same role as Eastern Catholics when we pray "O Holy Theotokos save us."

Fr. Deacon Ed


I agree with the thrust of your post, and the distinctions you've made but that's not what "ex opere operato" means. The phrase means that the sacraments work by being worked. The sacrament comes into being and is effective by the very fact of the act having been acted, independent of the sanctity of the one performing or receiving the act. Google could probably explain it more succinctly than I have.
While you are correct about the Latin translation, the fact is that Christ effects the sacrament/mystery through the agency of the minister. It is not through Mary.

Father Deacon Ed

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