Hi guys. I was recently received into the Latin church, but I found myself falling in love with some of the more eastern aspects of its practice and, being familiar with Orthodoxy, decided to start checking out Byzantine Catholicism.

I have a few questions though.

About the imagination, I was wondering what the details are about that. It concerns me that it seems to be the consensus in Eastern praxis that the imagination is a very dangerous thing to use in prayer - which I can understand - but yet the West supports its use and has some specific spiritual practices that make use of it. I don't want to have to hold beliefs in tension against another sui iuris church, so please help me understand. How far does this prohibition/warning go? because I enjoy music and art and fantasy video games and I wanted to know if the imagination is condemned as a lower aspect all around, or if it's simply in prayer. I also noticed in my evening prayers that there were petitions for dreamless sleep. Again, I understand, because quite often my dreams are filled with filth that confronts me as I awaken and when I have a particularly "holy" day I hardly dream... but I have had some prayers answered by dreams and am concerned about that.

Also, private devotions. In the West there are all sorts of novenas and chaplets, etc. for one to use in prayer. What kind of things do the Byzantines have? Also, what about sacramentals and third order relics?

Also, I have the gift of speaking in tongues. It's more-so something that I can control and use for prayer, but is that going to cause conflict with Eastern praxis?

And spiritual experiences, etc. I have had quite a few of them, and have fallen into prelest several times by "virtue" of my weak spiritual maturity, but I still believe them to be orthodox. We're talking visions, little moments of intellectual enlightenment where I suddenly grasp something intuitively that was before just an abstract belief, and extended periods of what I guess you could call "illumination" where I feel uplifted and enter into a constantly contemplative state. I don't see anything, but it's metaphorically like all I experience is graced with a sweetness, clarity, and light, and it becomes much easier to see how all of reality fits together. Everything seems to point to divine truths, etc. I was wondering, is there any correspondence in this to anything in hesychasm/theosis?

Thank you.

Use of imagination is common in the Roman Catholic Church. An example of this would be the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius. In some of these exercises the individual is asked to envision themselves as a participant in the Passion of Christ, for example. Imagination appears to normally be discouraged in the east.

In regard to devotions you mention the Rosary and the Divine Mercy Chaplet. I actually view the Divine Mercy Chaplet as somewhat eastern in nature. The Jesus Prayer would be a prayer most similar to it in the Eastern Churches.

You mention you are very familiar with Orthodoxy, and are now falling in love with the eastern church. Out of curiosity if you are a new convert to the Roman Catholic Church, why did you not explore the Eastern Catholic Churches before, if your heart appeared to be leaning in that direction.


Although not as common in the Eastern Catholic Churches, there are those who do speak in tongues. But you also might find in discouraged in some eastern Catholic churches.

Shlomo (Peace in Aramaic) Heavenly Black,




Welcome to the Church. You will find that we are quite diverse within our Communion.

One warning I will give you is that since you have been recently received into the Roman Church it will be a little difficult for you to switch to another Church within the Communion. A friend of mine a few years back converted from Lutheranism to Roman Catholicism. He was able to become a Ruthenian Catholic by pointing out to the Bishops involved that he lacked full knowledge of the Catholic Communion and that being a member of the Ruthenian Catholic Church was more spiritually fulfilling than being a Roman Catholic for him. Before he switched Churches he attended a Ruthenian Church in Minneapolis for a number of years.

I wish you well.

- Prayers (could be used privately) : Paraklisis (like Latin's novena, prayers to request intercession); Akathist (like Latin's rosary, to salute Our Holy Theotokos); Jesus prayer (like Latin's Divine Mercy Chaplet

- Sakramentals : may be it never called "sakramentals", but the use of Icons as "window to Heaven" is very populer, especially in Byzantines

- Regarding the Church change, i always laugh remembering it came to a time when many people asked me "are you really a Catholic??! I thought you are an Orthodox??!!" LOL

Since you acknowledge that you can fall into prelest, it sounds to me as though you could benefit from the guidance of a spiritual director, someone to help you sort out all the callings of your heart, the mysteries of our faith. Don't be in too much of a hurry to move East.

Remember the words Moses heard on the mountain: "Take off your shoes, for the place where you are standing is holy ground."

Where you are RIGHT NOW is holy ground. Breathe it, Live it, Cherish it. Then, in consult with a spiritual director, see what direction you should take.

Long story short, I wasn't fully aware of the rest of the communion in the Church before confirmation. I had looked into Eastern Orthodoxy before converting and was fascinated by its theology and praxis, but I thought I had to be Roman theologically in order to be orthodox. I started becoming more "traditionalist" and fundamentalist while I was waiting to be confirmed, and I encountered issues with even priests and deacons while going through that process (false information and being tossed into RCIA mainly). I finally got confirmed the right way and was tired of the lack of a sense of tradition and cult, and was tired of western religious culture too. I felt that I would be able to get away from the sentimentality and anti-intellectualism of Protestantism by becoming Catholic, but I was running into even clergy who were part of that trend. As a negative reaction to it all I kept getting angrier with the parishioners and clergy. Eventually I just took a break at the Byzantine parish. I soon recovered that fascination and love of Eastern Orthodox theology, tradition, and praxis and my motivation started changing from a "running away" to a "running toward". As a Latin Catholic I had noticed that my favorite things in the faith were very eastern. Things like the Paschal Mystery, the concept of divinization, mysticism, etc. I also was taken up with a more therapeutic view of sin and was drawn to the Franciscan spirituality which involves basically continual conversion and a liberation into one's true self by asceticism and penance. I came to love and understand iconography more, and also became interested in hesychasm. I wanted to fast, to take action. I see the east as more forward and masculine to be honest, and as a young man I much more enjoy the challenge along with the seemingly more transcendent view of God. Not to mention I came to believe in the Essence-Energies distinction, which I much prefer to the feeling I get of grace being cookies handed out as a reward in the west. Not to mention in the east Jesus isn't my boyfriend, he's my all-powerful God-King. Hey, and there's smells and bells and chanting! None of that jazz music!

But more seriously, something tells me I'm not going to find the sort of treatment of theology in Eastern Christianity as I would find in the West, am I? The whole systematic approach, etc.

Well, I should probably mention that I prayed to St. Therese for roses as a sign of whether I should go East and wound up walking into a rose garden hahaha.

I believe a number of people move. I wish there were were more EC Churches for all of us. Do not let the Latin faith cloud your judgement when you are in a difficult situation. God makes things happen!

I always love to ask those non-Catholics,.....why do these miracles only happen in this Church? Of course, there is no answer ever,........is someone trying to tell me something???

By all means, check us out. Be as open-minded as possible. The Latin Church does not have a monopoly on Catholicism. Neither does the phraseology they use in expressing dogma. Our authentic spiritualites are as valid as theirs.They often delve into our treasures, and we delve into theirs, too. And that's OK. However...here's some wisdom, so be attentive:

1) festina lente.
2) don't idealise or romanticise us.

Ha! I almost said that, but I went with Moses instead.

I especially need to remind myself that the perfect is the enemy of the good. I'm not used to Eastern praxis and, umm... let's just say I made the classic mistake of imbibing a bit too much monastic level material and am now paying for it in scruples.

>.<

Glory to Jesus Christ!

As your were splendidly advised you should speak to your spiritual director. I don't think a good Roman Catholic priest would lead you astray. What you spoke of is personal and difficult, if not impossible, to answer on a forum.

I would try to distinguish if it is really "imagination" or if you are being illuminated by "meditation." There is a huge difference. Imagination would come from the human mind and can be misleading; meditation is Divine inspiration which is good and should be put to practice with humility and thanksgiving. Imagination's origins are physically rooted; meditation is derived from reading, seeing, or hearing something Divinely rooted such as Scripture or prayer, and then pondering those points, asking the Holy Spirit to more fully explain them.

Here are a few words by Orthodox Bishop Kallistos from "How to Read the Bible" which appears in the "Orthodox Study Bible."
...the third step. After reliving Bible history in all its particularity, we are to apply it directly to ourselves. We are to say to ourselves, "these are not just distant places, events in the remote past. They belong to my own encounter with the Lord. The stories include me."
....Reading, then, the account of St Peter's betrayal of Jesus and of his restoration after the Resurrection, we can see ourselves as each an actor in the story. Imagining what both Peter and Christ experienced at the moment immediately after the betrayal, we make their feelings our own. (emphasis mine; this "imagining" the Bishop speaks of is meditation.)

Fr Deacon Paul

Thanks for including this. We had a very good discussion about "moving East" a year or two ago, and this was one of the important points that was brought out in it. It is easy to get an impression early on that everything in the ECCs is so much better than in the RCC, only to be disillusioned later on.

Welcome to the Byzcath forum!


Amen.
I'm sure you'll find a lot of support here.



BTW, we have St. Thérèse of Lisieux on our Iconostasis :-)

I too am a convert. If I knew anything about Eastern Catholicism 5 yrs. ago I probably would have came into the church in a Byzantine parish. I've been going to the Sunday Divine Liturgy for a month and a half and would have wanted to join that parish. The people were very warm. I felt like I belonged there. BUT, the priest explained that latins should not get involved in the Byzantine Church. It seems we Latins aren't welcome after all. He said we try to latinise the church and that the Roman Catholic church had destroyed their church in the past.
I'll have to go back at least sometimes even if not wanted. How can I stay away from this liturgy? But, I'll have to also go to latin parish with my wife and kids. My wife won't go back.
Maybe you should check to see if you're welcome before you get too involved.
Another thing, you may have a problem as I did if your priest only accepts the first 7 ecumenical councils.

Rose gardens can be beautiful places but there are always more thorns in them than roses.

The Cloud of Unknowing and other "western" practices advise sternly against imagination in prayer. Ignatius' Spiritual Exercises are a late innovation.

Elliot, that's very sad. Please try another parish, if one is available. Were it not for Latins, our parish would not exist.

Elizabeth

Glory to Jesus Christ!



Yes, my wife never knew anything of the Christian East until she met me.



I am glad you have been attending the Divine Liturgy for a month and half and the people were friendly. I must agree and disagree with the priest. For one a month and half isn't a lot of time and I am sure that many Latin’s have come and liked the D.L. but after a while burnt out. This does happen. So I would keep going and after a few more months reproach him.

Also what he said about the past is true. Some of the Latinizations we did to ourselves but for a long time Greek Catholics were second class Catholics (some may say we still are). Now there has been many since Vatican II who have come to our Church to escape what they don't like in the Latin one and have no interest in our Tradition, theology, patrimony, and the like.

So you have to understand where he is coming from. You may not agree or like it and maybe he presented it wrong but you need to understand where he is coming from.

Now, I disagree that Roman Catholics shouldn't get involved in our parishes. They should if they wish to fully accept our Church. There can be no halfway- either accept it fully or leave us in peace. Just as a Roman priest wouldn't want us to come to a Latin parish and try to change it. I am not saying you were trying to but you should understand the historical reality.



Yes and I would approach the priest again but after a longer period of time. Really show that you are there not just for the pretty Liturgy but because you want to be fully immersed in the Byzantine Tradition.



I am soryy about that. Maybe after some time she will feel different. Or look for another local Byzantine Catholic parish?



All Catholics and non-Catholics are welcome at our Churches. I can't stress that enough.



Many Byzantine Catholics hold this and in fact recent Ecumenical meetings that Rome participated in like the Ravenna Document alludes to this. For an Ecumenical Council to be truly Ecumenical it must be received by the whole Church (not just the Latin). Since the latter general councils of the West have not been universally received then they are not true Ecumenical Councils, IMHO. If you want to come East you need to be prepared for this as we try to live out our Authentic Traditions which yes are at odds sometimes with Rome. The centuries of Uniatism will take a while for us to break free from.

I pray you can continue your discernment Eastwards.

I would like to leave the only 7 councils thing to one side, although it is something I would like to discuss at length at some point.

I want to ask though, why a priest of an aging parish, where it is clear that in ten to fifteen years there won't be enough people left to sustain a parish, would stand in front of a young family, husband, wife, and six children, and tell them Latin rite Catholics are not wanted in the parish. Who is he going to have in his parish, or who is the parish going to have, ten years from now?
I was there when this was said to Elliott in front of his family. When I told the priest at the end of this conversation that I was a Latin rite Catholic who had been attending the parish for 5 years (the priest has been here only a few months) and he said "Isn't that sweet?" which seemed to me to be sarcastic and kind of a condescending put down, but perhaps he didn't mean it that way. But why would he want to drive an obviously devout growing family from his parish? I can understand if they came and tried to insist that we engage in Latin devotions, but they did no such thing, and had no intention of doing any such thing. Why wouldn't he say something gentle like "We Eastern rite Catholics are proud of our traditions the way you are proud of yours, and if you decide to attend here, we hope you will learn to love our traditions also." I think he spoke without thinking of the effect on the people he was speaking to.

I don't intend to be driven away because this priest said this. I know a Latin rite Catholic has the right to join an Eastern rite parish and worshipping that way enables me to worship which I have great difficulty doing in most local Latin rite parishes. But if I had heard this when I first started going there, I am not sure I would have been able to get over the initial hump of the strangeness of the whole thing, and of joining a place where everyone already knows everyone else and has the same cultural heritage.

The odd thing is, I went there because my son became Orthodox and I visited an Orthodox church with him and loved it. I am way less likely to resist this priest's attempts to move us farther along in Easternization than are the people already in the parish who strongly identify as Catholic as distinguished from Orthodoxy. And honestly, the people were thrilled to see a young family in our parish; they remember the church when it was full and full of young families and were happy to see Elliott's family there.

I wonder if Father understands the effect his words had. And if there is any point to my saying something to him. I am really grieved about this.

Susan Peterson

Take your time and make sure of your leanings. There isn't a rush. You can continue to attend both RC and the eastern Catholic churches at the same time for as long as you want. Why not enjoy both and the variety of blessings they offer. You can always decide to change Rites later if you continue to feel strongly pulled east.

I pray you get the answer you are seeking.

Well, Susan, maybe if you understood just how wrong all that sounds to us, you would be more attuned to the priest's concerns (which I have tried to explain to you elsewhere). Just calling us "Easter rite Catholics" is something of a putdown and an insult; at the very least, it shows a highly defective understanding of who and what the Eastern Catholic Churches really are.

Now, as I told you, I did not hear the conversation, and am not willing to judge either what the priest said or how the people in question responded. But I will say that if a Roman Catholic family presented itself to me asking to change their particular ritual Church, I would certainly tell them their move is entirely premature. We're more than a pretty Mass, and we're more than Roman Catholics with a cabaret license. If you really want to become Greek Catholics (an irrevocable change, by the way), then you need to demonstrate your commitment to living as a Greek Catholic--accepting more than just the Liturgy, but also the theology, spirituality, doctrine and disciplines that flow out of and inform the Liturgy. Keep coming to Liturgy. Get involved in parish activities. Enroll your kids in Eastern Christian Formation (and don't give the teachers a hard time when they start pushing authentic Eastern doctrine and practices into their heads), and maybe you should consider joining an adult education group yourself, since, to a large extent, you are very much in the catechumenate stage of your journey to the East. If you do that, in a couple of years we can talk. In the meanwhile, feel free to be here, remembering that you are guests in our house; please follow house rules.

And as I explained to you elsewhere, no one was asking about a formal change of rites. They were at the stage of having attended a few times and wanting to know more about it. And there is something wrong with a church which makes those who inquire feel unwelcome. Not the people, who did make them welcome, but the priest, who I think spoke without thinking of the effect on the people he was speaking to.
Susan Peterson

It was a sad story.

May be the Priest did not mean negatively with his words. Previously I have ever experienced the same thing. I realized that usually EC priests are very careful when the Latins show some interest to the Eastern Christianity, most probably to take care good relationship with the Latin hierarchy so it won’t give bad impression to the Latin hierarchy that they intend to grab the Latins, and therefore they “challenge” the Latins who show some interest to EC to make sure that they come with seriousness. Because once a Latin intend to change Church, the Priest (and the whole Church) will be involved, and take risk consequences. As we all know, usually EC community is small, so that they are more focus on survival. But anyway, this is my assumption.