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#367182 - 07/25/11 05:51 PM
Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
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In what appears to be a direct decision by Pope Benedict XVI, the Vatican has recalled the Nuncio to Ireland "for consultations". Now the question could well be "does the Irish government realize that the Pope has just rebuked them?". The recent attacks on the Holy See includes, for example, the abolition of the seal of Confession - which could not possibly have any positive effect beyond increasing the number of Irish martyrs. What will be next, the dissolution of the monasteries?
Fr. Serge
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#367192 - 07/25/11 08:23 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 306
Loc: Farmington Hills,MI
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Sounds to me like Oliver Cromwell has risen from the grave.Isn't he buried in Ireland? Seriously,this sounds like sad news.
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#367204 - 07/26/11 06:45 AM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr. Al]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
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I hadn't thought of the Cromwellian connection. But now that you mention it . . .
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#367206 - 07/26/11 07:54 AM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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One must realize that the Church scandal is being used by politicians to divert attention from the economic scandal. But one must also realize that the Church simply does not know how to deal with scandal in an era of liberal democratic government and unregulated media. It never seems to get out in front, it always manages to look more concerned with maintaining appearances than in seeing justice done, and when it finally does react, it usually implements draconian policies that go too far in the opposite direction.
The problem, of course, lies with the bishops, who, having been infantilized over the centuries by the constant interference of the Holy See, simply do not know how to govern their own houses any more.
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#367209 - 07/26/11 10:17 AM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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It has always seemed to me that a confessor has disciplinary authority over a penitent, particularly when the penitent is a cleric. Should a cleric confess, under seal of confession, to sexual abuse of a child, it would be entirely proper in my opinion for the confessor to require the penitent to tell his bishop or monastic superior what he has done as a condition for absolution, and to withhold absolution until he has performed that penance. The superior would then be under legal obligation to report the abuse, as it would not be covered by the seal of the confessional.
And if the abuser tries to get around this by confessing to his bishop or abbot, then the bishop or abbot should require the abuser to turn himself in to the authorities as a condition for absolution. And if the abuser does not do this, then the bishop should immediately suspend him (the bishop need not give cause) and begin proceedings to return the cleric to the lay state.
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#367216 - 07/26/11 11:33 AM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Pavel Ivanovich]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
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Your humble servant suggests that much of the problem comes from bishops thinking of themselves, not as fathers and shepherds, but as the CEOs of a religious business enterprise.
Fr. Serge
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#367218 - 07/26/11 12:47 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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No so much CEOs, as middle managers or franchise holders of some large multinational corporation. EWTN regularly broadcasts the annual meeting of the USCCB--and for the life of me, it looks like nothing less than a corporate management retreat. Highly disedifying, but then, I suppose if we had broadcast the deliberations of the Council of Nicaea, it would not live up to the poetry of the festal hymns.
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#367226 - 07/26/11 03:42 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 155
Loc: Gettysburg, PA
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I would like to make two observations from a priestly perspective to this suggestion.
When I was in seminary we were to never go to confession or spiritual direction to a superior who had charge over the canonical vote, i.e. those who had to decide whether a man would be advanced to the various ministries or to Holy Orders. Anything a seminarian said to a priest or did in front of a priest in this "external forum" would be up for strict evaluation.
I do not believe it is usual, to say the least, for a bishop to hear the confessions of his priests. That is why priests ought to have a personal spiritual director. Even within our diocese, during Holy Week at our afternoon of recollection the religious order priests serve as confessors for the secular priests.
Yes, the bishop is present as Christ the Priest, a spiritual father of a diocese and its priests, but he also makes present Christ the King, and as such he must be able to correct or counsel and not be bound by the sacramental seal or the professional confidence expected in spiritual direction. It is indeed a "fine line". In short (too late) I don't know of any of the guys who go to confession to their bishop.
Now, the suggestion that the confessor mandate a priest to reveal his sin to a superior as a condition for absolution is reprehensible; it is, in all reality, breaking the inviolable sacramental seal. Your opinion is misinformed. NEVER can sacramental absolution be used as a lure for someone to reveal their conscience in an external way. A confessor can plead and try to convince so that true justice is served, etc., but never mandate.
Additionally, sexual abuse by a cleric of a minor child is already a reserved sin, in which the priest needs permission of the Apostolic Penitentiary to absolve. However, this is strictly within the seal and the penitent remains anonymous. This development as well as the automatic excommunication which this crime garners (now recognized also as an ecclesiastical crime and not just civilly) either came from Sacramentorum Sanctitatis Tutela (I think???) in the late '90s or from the recent adjustments made to canon law at the request of then-Cardinal Ratzinger in 2003, or both.
Fr. Jon
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#367229 - 07/26/11 04:25 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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I'm not a canonist, but I am an historian, and I can cite at least three examples where a penitent was ordered to confess his sin publicly as a condition of his absolution:
1. Emperor Theodosius is commanded by Archbishop St. Ambrose of Milan to beg forgiveness from the people of Thessalonica for his massacre of 7000 people following a popular revolt.
2. Emperor Henry II is ordered by Pope Gregory VII to publicly confess as condition for lifting his excommunication.
3. King Henry II of England is required to confess and do public penance as condition of absolution for the murder of Thomas Becket.
I'm sure I could find numerous other examples if I looked harder. The penitential practice of the early Church was significantly different from that of the Church today. Nonetheless, past confessors were not reluctant to make sinners grovel publicly before reintegrating them into the Body of Christ.
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#367230 - 07/26/11 05:18 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/06
Posts: 5599
Loc: Dublin
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Haven't looked at the current Code (promulgated by JP 2) but certainly the previous legislation does not forbid the priest to require the penitent to make and act of public repentance - the classic example is murder. But the point is that it is the penitent himself who must make the act of public repentance; the priest-Confessor cannot do it for him. Thus the seal of Confession is not violated.
Fr. Serge
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#367233 - 07/26/11 07:15 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Michael_Thoma]
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Junior Member
Registered: 07/23/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
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It seems that the Irish and English can never be on the same side - now that the English are slowly reintegrating themselves back in to the Catholic Communion, the Irish are disintegrating themselves and into secularism. Sadly the Civl servants in the Vatican and many of the Irish bishops turned their back on the Irish people. The loyal flock in parishes up and down the country were betrayed. The Nuncio igonred a request to co-operate with the Cloyne inquiry. He's lucky he wasn't sent home by the Irish government. Humility and atonement is required from the Vatican. I live in hope...
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#367234 - 07/26/11 07:43 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Michael_Thoma]
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Member
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 427
Loc: Illinois
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Maybe the answer is to make absolution for every sin conditional upon public disclosure to the person wronged. One must tell their spouse of adultery, lust for another, etc. Tax cheats must report themselves to the IRS. Gossipers must tell the person whom they were talking about. Etc.
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#367237 - 07/26/11 08:17 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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But the point is that it is the penitent himself who must make the act of public repentance; the priest-Confessor cannot do it for him. Thus the seal of Confession is not violated. That, of course, was my point.
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#367238 - 07/26/11 08:24 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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Maybe the answer is to make absolution for every sin conditional upon public disclosure to the person wronged. One must tell their spouse of adultery, lust for another, etc. Tax cheats must report themselves to the IRS. Gossipers must tell the person whom they were talking about. Etc. That was the original practice, you know. Confession was not about receiving the forgiveness of God, which is immediate and unconditional in the presence of a contrite heart; rather, it was about offenses against one's neighbor, and in particular, against other members of the Body of Christ. When one member of the Ekklesia sinned against another, he would have to confess before the Ekklesia, and the bishop would decide how amends would be made. When the Church grew beyond a small elite, and became a mass movement, the problems inherent in this practice became apparently, and the Church adjusted by having the penitent confess to the bishop who stood in persona ecclesia; the bishop decided what the penitent would have to do to be readmitted to communion. Over time, bishops habitually delegated the authority to hear confessions, assign penances and grant absolution to the presbyters. Also, the focus of confession changed from one of reintegration to the community, to one of either atonement for sins against God (the Western emphasis) or the healing of spiritual illness (the Eastern emphasis).
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#367250 - 07/26/11 09:46 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 427
Loc: Illinois
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The problems inherent then, would also be present now.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that a priest could not make absolution conditional upon someone "turning themselves in". They could suggest it and recommend it, but not make it conditional.
I was told this by a priest, but that doesn't guarantee that it's 100% correct, either.
Also, to add to what you said, some sins were only forgiven once in a life time. Obviously, that was one of those inherent problems.
Edited by danman916 (07/26/11 09:48 PM)
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#367252 - 07/26/11 10:03 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: danman916]
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Moderator
Member
Registered: 08/29/98
Posts: 3811
Loc: Washington, PA
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General absolution would seem to be a way around it.
_________________________
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
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#367255 - 07/26/11 10:28 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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They could suggest it and recommend it, but not make it conditional. I guess different rules apply to Popes.
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#367259 - 07/26/11 11:17 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 155
Loc: Gettysburg, PA
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But those crimes mentioned such as the murder of St. Thomas Becket were not hidden (occult) sins. They were public (notorious) sins. Thus the comparison cannot be made to the a cleric who confesses sexual abuse of a minor in confession. Presumably this is an occult sin and crime. Apples and oranges. I stand by the result, that if Father X mandates a manifestation of conscience as a dependency for sacramental absolution, a direct violation of the Seal occurs, and penalties for the priest are automatically incurred.
My Code is in my office, and am unable to quote directly. I am not a canon lawyer, nor do I play one on television. But our seminary drilled this into us, for our good and the good of the souls in our care.
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#367261 - 07/26/11 11:30 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr. Jon]
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Member
Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 155
Loc: Gettysburg, PA
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These smart phones are great. Here I believe are some relevant canons:
Can. 978 §1. In hearing confessions the priest is to remember that he is equally a judge and a physician and has been established by God as a minister of divine justice and mercy, so that he has regard for the divine honor and the salvation of souls.
§2. In administering the sacrament, the confessor as a minister of the Church is to adhere faithfully to the doctrine of the magisterium and the norms issued by competent authority.
Can. 979 In posing questions, the priest is to proceed with prudence and discretion, attentive to the condition and age of the penitent, and is to refrain from asking the name of an accomplice.
Can. 980 If the confessor has no doubt about the disposition of the penitent, and the penitent seeks absolution, absolution is to be neither refused nor deferred.
Can. 981 The confessor is to impose salutary and suitable penances in accord with the quality and number of sins, taking into account the condition of the penitent. The penitent is obliged to fulfill these personally.
Can. 982 Whoever confesses to have denounced falsely an innocent confessor to ecclesiastical authority concerning the crime of solicitation to sin against the sixth commandment of the Decalogue is not to be absolved unless the person has first formally retracted the false denunciation and is prepared to repair damages if there are any.
Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.
§2. The interpreter, if there is one, and all others who in any way have knowledge of sins from confession are also obliged to observe secrecy.
Can. 984 §1. A confessor is prohibited completely from using knowledge acquired from confession to the detriment of the penitent even when any danger of revelation is excluded.
§2. A person who has been placed in authority cannot use in any manner for external governance the knowledge about sins which he has received in confession at any time.
Can. 985 The director of novices and his associate and the rector of a seminary or other institute of education are not to hear the sacramental confessions of their students residing in the same house unless the students freely request it in particular cases.
Fr. Jon
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#367262 - 07/26/11 11:42 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr. Jon]
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Member
Registered: 09/05/07
Posts: 155
Loc: Gettysburg, PA
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And lastly (I hope):
Can. 1388 §1. A confessor who directly violates the sacramental seal incurs a latae sententiae excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See; one who does so only indirectly is to be punished according to the gravity of the delict.
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#367267 - 07/27/11 04:23 AM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Junior Member
Registered: 07/23/11
Posts: 24
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
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I don't want to deliberately offend anoy one here and I've alot to learn about the Byzantine Catholic way. However as an Irish RC it is very hard not to be angry with the way the Vatican has handled the issue of child abuse.
But my faith in our Lord, his Father and the Holy Spiorit are still intact...:)
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#367270 - 07/27/11 09:32 AM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: S.ilvio]
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Member
Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 1090
Loc: Texas/USA
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Well good luck. Hope in vain for those ecclesiastical bureaucrats EVER to admit guilt or ask pardon of anyone for anything.
Any additional response to this topic from me would be futher slamming the hierarchy so I'll just keep mum & let others do it for me.
I stay in the Church not because of them but in spite of them.
Edited by sielos ilgesys (07/27/11 09:33 AM)
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#367277 - 07/27/11 11:02 AM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr. Jon]
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Member
Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 960
Loc: Upstate New York
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These smart phones are great. Here I believe are some relevant canons:
Can. 978 §1. In hearing confessions the priest is to remember that he is equally a judge and a physician and has been established by God as a minister of divine justice and mercy, so that he has regard for the divine honor and the salvation of souls.
§2. In administering the sacrament, the confessor as a minister of the Church is to adhere faithfully to the doctrine of the magisterium and the norms issued by competent authority.
Can. 979 In posing questions, the priest is to proceed with prudence and discretion, attentive to the condition and age of the penitent, and is to refrain from asking the name of an accomplice.
Can. 980 If the confessor has no doubt about the disposition of the penitent, and the penitent seeks absolution, absolution is to be neither refused nor deferred.
Can. 981 The confessor is to impose salutary and suitable penances in accord with the quality and number of sins, taking into account the condition of the penitent. The penitent is obliged to fulfill these personally.
Can. 982 Whoever confesses to have denounced falsely an innocent confessor to ecclesiastical authority concerning the crime of solicitation to sin against the sixth commandment of the Decalogue is not to be absolved unless the person has first formally retracted the false denunciation and is prepared to repair damages if there are any.
Can. 983 §1. The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore it is absolutely forbidden for a confessor to betray in any way a penitent in words or in any manner and for any reason.
§2. The interpreter, if there is one, and all others who in any way have knowledge of sins from confession are also obliged to observe secrecy.
Can. 984 §1. A confessor is prohibited completely from using knowledge acquired from confession to the detriment of the penitent even when any danger of revelation is excluded.
§2. A person who has been placed in authority cannot use in any manner for external governance the knowledge about sins which he has received in confession at any time.
Can. 985 The director of novices and his associate and the rector of a seminary or other institute of education are not to hear the sacramental confessions of their students residing in the same house unless the students freely request it in particular cases.
Fr. Jon Perhaps one of our Eastern Catholic or Orthodox priests or seminarians might shed some light as to a possible Eastern approach to this problem? Whenever I start reading or trying to understand Latin Canon law rules, my head starts to spin and I am trained as a lawyer! The only thing close in the civil law is the IRS code!
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#367283 - 07/27/11 02:13 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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Perhaps one of our Eastern Catholic or Orthodox priests or seminarians might shed some light as to a possible Eastern approach to this problem? Whenever I start reading or trying to understand Latin Canon law rules, my head starts to spin and I am trained as a lawyer! The only thing close in the civil law is the IRS code! Don't Orthodox bishops have much more authority and autonomy when it comes to suspending or returning their priests to the lay state? My understanding is the affected cleric can appeal to his synod and ultimately to his patriarch, but it is rare for the authority of the bishop to be overturned except in clear cases of episcopal misconduct or an obvious miscarriage of justice.
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#367546 - 08/04/11 08:14 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: StuartK]
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Member
Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 306
Loc: Farmington Hills,MI
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Dear Stuart, An Orthodox bishop MAY suspend a priest within his own diocese.He MAY also forbid a priest from another diocese from serving in his diocese.However, he CANNOT laicise ANYONE on his own;a Canonical Trial is mandated for Deacons,Priests, and Bishops.I don't have my trusty RUDDER with me,but I believe it takes 3 bishops to judge a deacon,six for a priest,and 9 for a bishop. Regarding Confession,my former ROCOR bishop in response to my query said that under no circumstances may Confessions be revealed.He did add that if the priest hearing the confession of someone preparing for Holy Orders learns of an impediment,he may tell the bishop of the candidate that there is an impediment,WITHOUT revealing the confession.At that point,it is on the bishop to question the potential candidate and act as he sees fit.The seal of Confession,however, is not violated.My former bishop has a DD from a Serbian Theological Academy,so I'm fairly certain of his answer. I hope this information helps,
Fr.Andrei
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#367548 - 08/04/11 10:24 PM
Re: Vatican recalls Nuncio to Ireland
[Re: Fr Serge Keleher]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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Interesting. It is still significantly more flexible and response than the equivalent Catholic process, whereby every decree of laicization must come out of the Curia Romana.
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