I decided that I would attend a 10:00am Divine Liturgy, for the feast of the Transfiguration at a local Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church, in Allentown PA. When I got there the doors were locked, only two people, including myself, were waiting. 9:58 still locked. Decided not to wait and went to a local Antiochian Orthodox Church, 10 minutes late, but better than nothing. Several people were present and we had the blessing of the harvest. Very warm and friendly parish. What is up with Byzantine Catholic parishes these days?. One I go to, UGCC, doesn't even use incense, the other only one or two people show up for a feast day. And in this case the priest can't even get out of bed on time. Sorry for my ranting, but for someone who trying to be the best Catholic I can, this surely doesn't help!.

Be the best Eastern Christian you can, and forget about the management.

LOL!

It's probably unfair to assume the priest didn't show up because he couldn't get out of bed. More likely he had a sick call or something.

The numbers are typical. There are a number of parishes in New Jersey where a dozen people on Sunday is average. Pennsylvania is not as bad but not far behind. The bishops and priests all say the Ruthenian Church is in free fall. The liturgical revisions only succeeded in chasing away more people. We could close half the New Jersey churches and no one would notice. Thanks, bishops, for killing our church.

To be fair, the Ukrainians are not far behind. But they don't have an RDL to chase away the last few people. The OCA ain't exactly healthy, either.

The Byzantine Catholic church in Irving, TX (of all places) is pretty light on Latinisms, and has pretty good weekly turnout with lots of young families attending.

St. bail's Irving

OK as I posted above St Basil's is wonderful -- but far away for my family. All the RC's anywhere near our house are....uhm.. lacking (IMHO)liturgically.
The UGCC that isn't too far away is rather Latinized and has all people's parts in Ukrainian.

So thank God for Byzantine Catholic Churches or else I'd be insane!

~~ Not to say I won't go Orthodox one day ~~

The Byzantine Catholic Church in San Diego, where I am a member and Catechist is lacking Latinisms and also has a wonderful turn out of young families (including mine) on Sundays and a good showing on Holy Day services.

Our parish, while we do use the RDL, is averaging over sixty people (and that is being conservative) on Sundays and if I may say so are very Orthodox in our Liturgical praxis.

We should not idealize other Orthodox and Greek Catholic jurisdictions they may not have the same problems as the Ruthenian Church because they are not perfect either. How many Orthodox Churches are full on all Holy Days? How many actually offer services on them? I think the answer would surprise us. Renewal is needed across the board in Eastern Christianity.

We should pray that the Ruthenian Church can refocus on our Tradition and start to grow again through evangelization. Our new Metropolitan has a large task at hand and let us pray that he (whenever we get one) is up for the challenge. Our Mother Church is thriving maybe we can learn from them and our Church can have a spring time.

Maybe forty years of lethal persecution is just the thing we need.

Our San Antonio Byzantine Catholic community has been in existence since March 27. We just adopted the name St. Anastasia. We are able to have Divine Liturgy every first and third Sunday and have scheduled Divine Liturgy for every major feast day through Christmas. Our attendance is about 20 each Liturgy with most being young families. We are attracting new members. Our liturgy is very Eastern with few discernible Roman influences, save those that are there because the diocese owns the space we meet in. We have a few Byzantines, a few Ukrainians a few Romans and a lot of enthusiasm. Maybe the Southwest is where the BCC has a future. By the way, none of the Romans have any interest in Latinizing the Liturgy or traditions of the Church.

It's encouraging to read the reports of new parishes and the enthusiasm they have for our patrimony. It's also encouraging to note the honesty people have towards the real problems and their sources. Let us pray for renewal from the top down. Or even for renewal from the bottom up.

I attend a UGCC parish in northern California. Today, the Feast of the Dormition, we will be serving Orthros and the Divine Liturgy beginning at 8:00 a.m. --- with no Latinisms. There are no Orthodox parishes in this area. The Roman parishes do not require attendance today; it is no longer a day of obligation when the feast falls on a Monday.

Santa Pragmatica, ora pro nobis!

Change is not always a good thing...Thank goodness, the great Ecumenical Council of the Orthodox Churches did not take place yet, or we may have made convenience type changes that we would have now regretted.

The problems in the Roman Catholic Church are not from the Vatican Councils. They are from liberal takeover.

The Ruthenian Church has the same problems. Liberals redesigned the Divine Liturgy to suit their own theology. And then they wrapped it into political correctness. Bishop William routinely says that we must "make progress with the Liturgy." Is there any wonder why people are leaving?

People are leaving? When did this start?

"make progress with the Liturgy" in what way, what direction? What does he mean? Adherence to the RDL?

What I hear from those who have wandered off to Orthodoxy or from some who have the Orthodox are starting new parishes and sending missionaries to areas both within this country and into others. Those who left proclaim that that is one of the main reasons they have left us.

The inscrutable Bishop William! What he lacks in clarity he more than compensates for through ambivalence, ambiguity and tortured syntax.

Wow do I detect some dry wit here? You sure youre from Virginia and not Exeter or Nottingham?

Bishop William has been saying this since he came to New Jersey. I think he considers the RDL as progress. The goal seems to mimic the roman catholic novus ordo.

The priests all talk about how the people have been driven away with all the changes. I know at least one cantor who joined a choir in a Russian Orthodox parish. He can talk of nothing else except how good their liturgy is compared to ours.

From what I have seen of Bishop William as celebrant, I don't give much credence to him as a competent liturgist. His pastoral letters in Eastern Catholic Life are fairly underwhelming, too.

Well if it is an honest Russian church, meaning ROCOR, and not OCA 'Russian' then their Liturgies make even other Orthodox blush. The OCA Russian parishes are very good from what Ive seen but not quite on the level with a ROCOR church.

Its disconcerting when everything the Catholic Church touches has been going to crap from a liturgical POV. It still trumps the hell out of the Orthodox on social/moral orientation issues, but it breaks my heart thinking of its beautiful past and all the fruits of it and comparing it to now and its Spiritual plight.

Wow!!! What arrogance!!! I see you are a Roman Catholic, why don't you tend to your own house which is an unspeakable mess rather than dis the Orthodox who you are not even affiliated with.

The more I see trash like this the more entrenched I become in not wanting to see unity restored. Not with cranks like you running your mouth.

Seraphim

What are you talking about? That was me saying Orthodox Liturgies are better by default than EC liturgies. I said clearly in my post that everything the Catholic Church is touching is seemingly being degraded. Why else would my heart be broken? My point with the ROCOR church is that they are even above the wonderful liturgies of the former Russian OCA liturgies. The ROCOR parishes embarrass everyone. I even heard a Russian immigrant say its like you took the church from Russia (and as he said this he made a motion like he picked something up and set it down in a different spot) and put it here in the states. Thats a HUGE compliment.

The only thing I said the Orthodox are weak on are social works. Meaning taking unified stances on things such as abortion, euthanasia, gay unions, etc... The Catholic Church is the only real force against this stuff and charitable works are the Catholic Church. I really dont think anyone with any intellectual honesty would say the Orthodox even pound for pound come close to the charitable works of the Catholic Church. Now only if us Catholics would remember we are The Church of Jesus Christ first and social works goody-goody second then we might be better off.

I think that was a ridiculous overreaction on your part. I know my church is on a downward spiral. I think youre overly defensive, especially in light of me actually complimenting the Orthodox churches. Your bias immediately assumed I was not.

It seems to me this discussion is somewhat inappropriate in tone and is coming to no meaningful end. I don't think we have a ranking system here to decide who is best on which parameter. Also, this is supposed to be a discussion about Eastern Christianity. As a starting point we do not presume one church is better than another and we should not be making Roman/Eastern assertions since they have no obvious benefit to any discussion here.

This is a great discussion because it indicates the necessity for a Church, both East and West to learn from each other. If something is lacking in the West, it can learn from the East. What is lacking in the East, it can learn from the West. Maybe a bit of humility is needed on our part, and what our Lord actually asks from each of us.

Ray

T

Whatever. You sure as heck sound biased to me and this nonsense of comparing us with the Catholic Church as far as charitable works go is over the top. This is only one link regarding what we do and I can send you plenty more. http://www.antiochian.org/CharityNews What do you mean the ROCOR parishes embarress everyone? No offense to my ROCOR brothers and sisters but they are not the measuring stick used to compare how one Orthodox stacks up against another. Regarding the following items and I quote you here ""The only thing I said the Orthodox are weak on are social works. Meaning taking unified stances on things such as abortion, euthanasia, gay unions, etc... The Catholic Church is the only real force against this stuff and charitable works are the Catholic Church. I really dont think anyone with any intellectual honesty would say the Orthodox even pound for pound come close to the charitable works of the Catholic Church. Now only if us Catholics would remember we are The Church of Jesus Christ first and social works goody-goody second then we might be better off."" Mighty high sounding to me !! From what I hear in my Church<Antiochian>we are not wishy washy about these things at all and I suspect the other jurisdictions aren't either. So yours is the true Church of Jesus Christ, funny we say we are and you are most welcome to come home when you are ready. (-: This forum is supposed to be all about fostering common ground and promoting unity but I have to honestly say I don't see it ever happening when there are people like you spewing trash. Reread your posts a few times, if you still don't get it why I am upset I don't know what to say. Yes, I am blowing my stack right now but I am out of patience.

Seraphim

Christ is in our midst!!

(We seem to forget that os often.) Can we be a bit more charitable? Can we frame our comments in a more diplomatic way? How do you think He reacts when his followers savage each other?

We come here to learn from each other and to encourage each other.. When we find infirmities in our neighbors' corporate bodies, can we be more charitable in pointing them out? Or is it necessary to even point them out? Is it necessary to delve into the wounds of others?

We're all wounded by living in this fallen world and we all need each other. There are plenty of things going on to wound people. That's why I have the ministry to families who have walked away from all communities--and even Christ Himself--because of the way they see and have experienced communities fighting, people fighting, and countless other ways that they find themselves wounded just by being part of a community. Yes, there is plenty of imperfection, but can we be charitable to each other as we work to correct it.

In Christ,

Bob

Hello Bob:

I understand what you are saying here and all of it is true but to be honest with you I am tired of all of the bickering et al . I have come out swinging because keeping ones mouth shut does not in any way make things better on this forum in my view.

In Christ:
Seraphim

Many thin skins reveal many weaknesses in ones position.

The Lord wants Christians to treat each other with charity. All apostolic churches, Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Catholic, have plenty of problems within. Their members should concentrate on helping each other and praying for each other. Let us all fast and pray for Christian unity. If we do, perhaps the Lord will grant our prayers while we are still in this world.

This is the one and only warning that I'll post to this thread ... the next time that one even vaguely looks to be necessary, the thread will be locked.

Jim, Ray, and Bob have each made valid, albeit slightly different, points in the posts quoted above. With apologies to them, if what I say hereafter is so far from what they are each thinking that they are offended to have been cited as helping to frame my thoughts, let me elaborate ...

As has been said previously, this forum exists as a place in which the community (that most of us consider ourselves to be) of Eastern Christians and others is afforded opportunities for education about the Faith as it is taught and lived in our respective Churches - sometimes mirroring one another, at other times paralleling, and, at still other times, diverging. Invariably, such opportunities lend themselves to discussion, dialogue, and even debate.

However, the rules of both charity and civility are paramount and adherence to them is more than an expectation - it is a requirement of continued participation here. Examples to the contrary in the governmental arena or other public venues notwithstanding, it is a long since established fact of life that one can express one's preferences, disagreements, etc, without violating the expectations of polite discourse in civil society.

Such expectations are neither pollyanaish, an invitation to gather round and sing kumbayah, nor a demand that postings be 'vanilla'. I soundly reject the comments, occasionally made here and elsewhere, that this forum is one in which no one has an opinion or that it most resembles an agape.

Either would make for a very dull environment, unworthy of the intellects that can be found among its members. None of that, however, precludes or obviates a requirement for basic courtesy.

In simple terms,

you are free to express disenchantment with the liturgical praxis of any of the Churches; you are not free to do so in a way that disrespects the worship of an Apostolic Church, as that disrespects the God to Whom the Worship is directed and disrespects the clergy and faithful of that Church in their worship of Him.

you are free to express your opinions, pro or con, as to the manner and the degree to which a particular Apostolic Church addresses societal issues and/or meets the corporal needs of God's people through its social ministries; you are not free to do so in a way which suggests that its shortcomings in such a regard are evidence of a failed Faith or make it less a true Church.

you are free to express your opinions, pro or con, on the leadership qualities of those whom the Holy Spirit has allowed to be placed in positions of authority over God's people - the clergy and hierarchy; you are not free to express those opinions in a manner that is derisive or disrespectful of their persons or sacred offices (that means more than merely affording them their titles - an insult by titled name is no less an insult).

Finally, it behooves those who would post allegations as to how well or how badly any Church, hierarch, priest, parish, or other canonical entity fulfills its sacred mandates, to educate themselves beforehand as to the matters of which they speak - and - to consider, in comparisons that they might draw between Churches, the relative sizes and resources of each.

There is no valid claim of credibility to be had when one asserts, albeit accurately, the obvious - e.g., that one can apply more paint, faster, to a canvas using a roller than one can using an artist's brush. The better - indeed, perhaps the only valid - analysis asks whether those who wield the two implements each do so effectively.

Many years,

Neil

here's my 2 kopecks:

1) if the Orthodox Churches succeed in the efforts to re-evangelise W. Europe & the rest of the secularised, formerly Christian world, I'd rejoice.

2) as I have said before, the Orthodox Church is not the place for me but anyone who wants to join it is hunky-dory with me. People who do choose it can work to make it a better place (I'd say the same thing to people contemplating switching over to one of the Catholic Churches)...make it a better place...

"People are leaving? When did this start?"

my question is, "when is it gonna STOP?"

at St. Basil's in Irving (TX), lotsa people are coming.

There is finite end point.

Compris. Merci.

My Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic parish probably averages about 75-95 on Sundays. It should be 2-3x that. I think 4 things impact the most parts of the Catholic Church:

1.) Pastors and the laity don't evangelize for the most part. They don't actively try to build their parishes. It is a great deal of hard work and many wouldn't know where to begin even if they were willing. This could largely be applied to the Latin Rite as well.

2.) The desire to be "more Orthodox" by doing away with things like daily liturgy. To me this is just a matter of being lazy.

3.) Negative attitudes! Be it the "traddie" Latin Rite refugees or those with size envy when it comes to comparing their chosen church to the Latin Rite or those that denigrate the "turquoise books" the constant din of negativeness is poison to a parish!

4.) Many parish don't want to grow. That would mean sharing power. Many pastors and laity cannot even comprehend the notion of two fully-packed DLs every Sunday. Their brains would explode at the thought of another 1-2 DLs every Sunday in Spanish or other common locally-used languages.

Someone once tried to explain to me how a huge mistake was made in not re-locating Saint Mary's (now a proto) Cathedral in Sherman Oaks, CA. Seems like a small handful of young parish families settled in somewhat nearby Santa Clarita and many felt that Saint Mary's should "chase" those new parishioners. Absurd! Crazy!

Saint Mary's is in the middle of about 4.5+ MILLION Catholics! Many of the surrounding Latin Rite Church are jammed to over capacity. If you can't recruit 100-200+ parishioners in that sort of setting the parish is simply not praying and working hard enough.

NB: The folks in Pittsburgh should create a Spanish translation of the turquoise book.

I agree and do join you.

Recently, in the Eastern Pennsylvania Diocese of the Orthodox Church in America, there was a wonderful example of the bishop and his priests serving the needs of the community. http://www.doepa.org/news_110816_2.html

While it may be slow for various Orthodox parishes in this country to engage in such activity, this demonstrates that the seed of the Gospel is beginning to flower. Also, there is nothing from preventing us from volunteering time in our communities. :-)

In gratitude,

Ray
www.theologyincolor.com

A lot of parishes have outreach programs, but since Orthodoxy is mainly for people who don't like organized religion, don't expect much in the way of top-down, diocese-driven programs--though I suspect the OCA under Metropolitan Jonah will become much more outspoken and visible on an institutional level.

Many of the most active parishes, not just in the OCA but also the AOC, have large numbers of converts, and these bring an outward focus, organizational skill and evangelical zeal from their Protestant background. Old-line ethnic parishes still seem to focus on meeting the needs of the ethnic community first ("We look out for our people"), with only residual efforts directed at the larger community at large.

Was it Will Rogers who said, "I belong to no organized political party: I am a Democrat.

"The folks in Pittsburgh should create a Spanish translation of the turquoise book."

No. Ni modo. Ay! - Dios mio. Que locura.

For starters, it couldn't be done. ...

Maybe they outta promulgate instead the Spanish version produced by Archbp. Dmitri of the OCA Diocese of the South.

Hmm. A translation of a paraphrase of the original. Kind of like running something through a few of those on-line translation programs, then back into the original language. Like a box of chocolates--you never know what you're gonna get.

"..it couldn't be done..."? Why not? Sure it could be done.

I think the Byzantine Ruthenian Catholics should "promulgate" their existing work translated into Spanish. Rather than turquoise I would favor a deep maroon for the Spanish language version.

Ohhhhhhhh, you're one of those anti-turquoise bookers. I have heard of you folks. Your sarcasm aside, these really should be a Spanish translation made available. The turquoise book is the obvious source.

No. When you make a translation, you go to the source. So the proper place is, once again, the Slavonic recension. Maybe they'll get it right translating from Slavonic into Spanish, but I doubt it. And the reason you don't simply translate the English "translation" (I hesitate to call it that, for fear of insulting real translators) is the same reason one would not make a Spanish translation of War and Peace using an English translation of War and Peace as your source text. Can't understand that principle, then there is no real point in discussing anything pertaining to translation, liturgical or otherwise.

By the way, I might be the "anti-tourquoise booker", being one of the first to vote with my feet, as well as naming the odious volume the Teal Terror.

"You haven't heard Shakespeare until you've heard it in the original Klingon."

My parents-in-laws' primary language is Spanish, and I wanted to get them a copy of the Diving Liturgy in Spanish. After searching for a while, I ended up finding a ROCOR translation for their South American churches.

I have much more faith in that one, sadly, than one that would be made by my own Ruthenian church's.

Interestingly enough, I have more faith in my Byzantine Ruthenian Church than anything in Orthodoxy. Go figure...

Do you have any idea just how arrogant/insulting your retort is? My goodness. You might be proud to vote with your feet. I tend to use my brain and when it comes to matters of faith, my heart. Good luck to you.

When confronted with error, there one must turn one's back upon it. Also, it isn't arrogance if you know whereof one speaks.

I say that because the current English translation of the Divine Liturgy promulgated by the Ruthenian Church features errors and unnecessary political correctness at best, heresy at worst.

I don't trust them to translate it any better into Spanish. The Spanish version I found from ROCOR is a much more faithful translation than the current RDL of our church, sadly.

So you say...

If I have to choose between your personal opinion (or those of others) and that of the Catholic Church through the Metropolia of Pittsburgh, guess which one I'm gonna pick?

I detest cafeteria catholicism where individuals believe they themselves are are arbiters of what is good and bad, what they should accept and reject. far, far too Protestant in practice for me.

You're digging yourself in even deeper. Is that a product of thinking within one's feet versus one's heart and mind? Make no mistake, accuracy and arrogance can coexist in an individual or an institution and it's often an ugly mix. To even infer that the presence of accuracy eliminates the possible presence of arrogance is ludicrous.

For the record, it was not "thinking" that Stuart claims to have done with his feet. Even if it was, feet are no less proficient at thinking than are hearts. In fact, given the abysmal record of hearts at thinking, I would sooner give feet a chance, if heads cannot be had (which, alas, is increasingly so).

Anyway I propose a compromise. Let Stuart admit to being a jerk, and let Abraham admit that Stuart is a fully correct one. I leave it to the participants to decide if these labels are to be applied generally or only specifically.

Abraham,

If you knew anything about me, you would know that I thought long and hard about the implications of the revised Divine Liturgy and the general direction the Ruthenian Church had decided to take. Since it was apparent that it had turned its back upon the notion of embracing the fullness of the Byzantine Orthodox Tradition, promulgating an abridged, bowdlerized, scholarly deficient and abysmally ugly paraphrase of the Slavonic Recension, and since it was made clear that no comment, dissent or questions would be entertained either by the clergy or the hierarchy, there was nothing else to do except to leave. Having prayerfully discerned the voice of the Holy Spirit, I acted in accordance with my conscience and literally voted with my feet.

I have, thankfully, found a home in the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, where my liturgical life has been greatly enriched, and where the ecclesiological vision of an Orthodox Church in communion with the Church of Rome is shared by the clergy and people alike. I do not regret my choice, though I do regret that a Church which which introduced me to the glorious gifts of Eastern Christianity, and where I had made many good friends, continues to languish, not the least because it refuses to restore the liturgical heritage of the people in its fullness, because the liturgy is both the wellspring and the touchstone of theology, the fullest and most perfect expression of our faith, and when it is defaced, the totality of our faith is defaced as well.

When people start using the term "cafeteria Catholic" in reference to people who want nothing more than to worship in the fullness of their Tradition, as directed by the Holy See itself, I think we know where the label "jerk" rightly belongs.

I am glad that you followed your conscience into the Melkite Church. For those of us called to remain in the Ruthenian Church and work to restore our Byzantine Orthodox Tradition working within the Church structure please instead of always bashing us offer some sort of support. And yes prayer works! Good things still happen in the Ruthenian Church.

My parish in San Diego is a good example as are other Western Eparchial parishes. Our parish is growing, the All-Night Vigil has been introduced on a limited basis, compline is prayed during Fasting seasons, matins is prayed on weekdays and on most Sundays, Vespers is every Saturday, Orthodox theologians are studied at our Adult Enrichment classes (we are going to Study St. Nicholas Cabasila's commentary on the divine Liturgy this upcoming Great Fast), we have Monastic Associates of Holy Resurrection Monastery, and have worked with the Orthodox Project Mexico. These are a positive witness to our Orthodox Ruthenian Traditions and yes we use the RDL. We are working with what the Lord has given us.

I have been attending mostly Orthodox services and even though some are better than others, none seem to be abbreviated or compromised as I have unfortunately seen in the ECC. The music in the Ruthenian parishes is very beautiful, but you do have the turquoise monster (we had a green monster in USMC boot camp)and the fastest incensing in the west. Not to mention parishoners that sigh every time they have to bow or make the sign of the Cross (if they even do it...).
I just went to the Ukrainian Cathedral in Parma. No incensing (even when the Bishop was celebrating...)and only part of it was sung. I had been praying a lot being Roman Catholic and all considering Orthodoxy, and getting hints like these makes me think more seriously about going across the street.
The Melkite parish I visited in Brooklyn (Cleveland) Ohio was very Orthodox (sans the pews but most Orthodox parishes have that too)with a great Akathist during lent.
Its sad that even the Liturgics of the Eastern Churches are being compromised by the 'spirit' of VII. Its frightening to be honest.

Thanks for your comments. Are you a member of Holy Angels Parish? They have a truly excellent pastor in Fr. Robert Pipta.

Well said.

A time is coming when men will go mad, and when they see someone who is not mad, they will attack him, saying, "You are mad; you are not like us." (St. Anthony the Great)

A Christian must oppose what is wrong at all times. Our bishops and many of our clergy do not love the jewel of our own Liturgical Tradition - because one cannot love what one does not know. They whitewash their jewel with their own ideas and politics and demand obedience to their own creation. And when the people are chased away they dare complain about unfaithfulness!

The RDL is the latest and most problematic symptom of this very long-standing problem. One may attempt to take the "Let's try to live with a bad Liturgy" approach but eventually one will find that you can't build a solid house on the foundation of a warped Liturgy.

I'm confused.

Are you saying the current Ruthenian liturgy is good because it's the Ruthenian liturgy, or does it have merit beyond the church that promulgates it?

When it is revised yet again, will you be saying the same thing you are now, regardlesd of the revisions?

There is an entire forum devoted to discussion - pro or con - of the Revised Divine Liturgy of the Byzantine Metropolia of Pittsburgh. It may be time that this thread go there.

However, regardless of whether it remains here or is moved, the personal comments directed at one another by posters need to end - and now.

Disagree on principle, disagree on application, raise and defend your points and, civilly, address the points raised by your opponent.

Do not continue (as in 'cease') the practice of analyzing one another against some self-developed standard and use your interpretation of it as a basis for maligning or lambasting one another. That is not debate, it's just plain arguing - neither illuminating nor instructive to others.

Many years,

Neil

I am in general agreement with Irish Melkite on this.

And yet we need to have pastoral concern for people who have been hurt, and who continue to be hurt. The longer and greater one loves something the longer and greater the grieving process for the loss will be. And the fact that the loss was totally unnecessary and intentional makes the whole affair far worse.