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Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: Anna] #367770 08/13/11 03:11 PM
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StuartK Offline
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The Ben Franklin cartoon of 1774 more than the Byzantine double-eagle applies to we Catholics in America today:

[Linked Image]

Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: Anna] #367771 08/13/11 03:12 PM
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StuartK Offline
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On the other hand, Roman policy towards the Eastern Catholic Churches has always been Divide et Impera.

Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: DMD] #367772 08/13/11 03:36 PM
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DMD: This is exactly the kind of pessimistic attitude that stands in the way of reunion.
Ukrainian Greek Catholics and Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics have so very, very much in common, yet we worship in separate Churches. Perhaps in the 1910's and 1920's regional ethnic identification was an issue especially among the new immigrants from Eastern Europe, but today ethnicity should not be an issue relative to the merging of the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh Archeparchies.
Why not seriously consider the advantages of reunion? It would seem to be the only Christian and practical thing to do.

Last edited by Pavloosh; 08/13/11 03:38 PM.
Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: DMD] #367773 08/13/11 04:04 PM
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Dave in McKinney Offline
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Originally Posted by DMD
Not my party so to speak, but why would the Carpatho-Rusyns of the BCC want to be united under Philadelphia today any more than in 1920? Munkacs and Kiev hardly get along in Europe, wouldn't this just cause more strain within the Church? Same problem we Orthodox have.


One of the big stumbling blocks to me considering orthodox church is the jurisdictional overlap and back-biting between them.
The orthodox churches can't understand how EC's can be in communion with Rome since there is an alleged chasm doctrinally. Yet I can see the example of EC trying to unite the two as a great act of love.

Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: Pavloosh] #367774 08/13/11 05:28 PM
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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As many of us know, there are serious woes in both the Pittsburgh and the Philadelphia Metropolias. However, a serious discussion with Patriarch Sviatoslav might possibly be helpful. It would probably be impossible for most (if not all) the parishioners of the Pittsburgh Metropolia to explain what the difficulties were which brought on the original division.

I am unaware of any particular problems between Mukachiv and Uzhhorod. With the possible exception of the Hungarian parishes, the clergy and faithful all speak Ukrainian. The Bishop of Mukachiv was our guest here in Dublin one summer, and had no trouble serving, preaching, and conversing in Ukrainian.

Fr. Serge

Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: Anna] #367775 08/13/11 05:45 PM
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j.a.deane Offline
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Fr. Serge (et al.),
In the San Diego area (which is clearly not the rule as there aren't nearly as many parishes in places like Pan-Slav-ania), our Ruthenian parish has a growing relationship with the Ukrainian parish. As a concrete example, this past Lent we didn't have Presanctified liturgies on Wednesdays, and our parish bulletin noted that we can/should go to the Ukrainian parish on Wednesday nights. Conversely, we did have Friday evening Presanctified Liturgies and the Ukrainian parish didn't, and their bulletin noted that we had them.

This past week we had a catechist enrichment session, and it was led by the Father James of the Ukrainian parish. We invite each other to other events as well. Again, San Diego is a paradise not only in terms of weather, but in terms of seeing more interactions happening than what has been the case historically. I've heard that Bishop Nicholas Samra has this same goal in mind.

At any rate, I have thought about going to Chicago in September-some people from the local Ukrainian parish are going, and I may indeed coordinate with them. Does anyone know whether Patriarch Sviatoslav will be visiting other parts of the States?

In speaking to current or recent seminarians from our Ruthenian Seminary in Pittsburgh, I can sense that the tides are changing, albeit not to everyone's liking. And I can't help but pray that this will lead to more fidelity to our Orthodox traditions, as well as to more unity between Greek Catholics in the USA.

In XC,
J. Andrew

Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #367779 08/13/11 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Fr Serge Keleher
Dear J. Andrew,

Your points are well taken and clearly articulated. May I suggest a serious discussion with Patriarch Sviatoslav during his forthcoming visit to the USA?

Fr. Serge


Hmmm...using some forward thinking:
1. A Rusyn/Hungarian (and a Romanian maybe??) metropolia within a real Patriarchate?
2. An ironclad agreement that all Rusyn traditions, chant and language be protected and honored.
3. An agreement that within the non-Ukrainian metropolia(s) there be encouragement to use the vernacular.
4. Rome's full agree that the Patriarchate extend into the diaspora
5. Along with #2, reinstitution of our traditional married
priesthood.

These "radical" ideas may sound impossible, but with God all things are possible. They would unite the Mother Churches with their daughter Churches in the diaspora.

Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: Anna] #367781 08/13/11 08:21 PM
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I don't know. Even assuming a wildly optimistic 90% probability for each of those five events happening, cumulatively that's only 59%. Being more realistic, the probability falls close to nil. There will be communion with the Orthodox before there is jurisdictional unity among even the Ruthenians and Ukrainians in this country.

Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: Anna] #367783 08/13/11 09:04 PM
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JimG Offline
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In Houston, TX, there are both Byzantine and a Ukrainian churches.
Fr. Elias who is priest at the Byzantine church speaks Ukrainian and serves the Liturgy at the Ukrainian church when their priest is not available. I believe the Byzantines even altered their Liturgy time so that their priest could serve both churches.

Is this unusual?

Last edited by JimG; 08/13/11 09:05 PM.
Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: Anna] #367784 08/13/11 09:16 PM
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Many of the ethnic members of the two local Ukrainian parishes were once members of our Ruthenian parish in the early 70s, including one of the priests. One of the parishes is made up almost exclusively of immigrants and their children and we don't have much collaboration with them. We have a very close relationship with the other parish, however. This Sunday, their usual space for liturgy is going to be unavailable, so the entire parish, including their priest, will be joining us for Divine Liturgy. Our usual attendance is around 50 and theirs is somewhat less, so we're looking forward to having a full church for a change. I'm planning to arrive early to make sure I can get my usual seat!

Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: babochka] #367785 08/13/11 09:56 PM
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Fr Serge Keleher Offline
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Well, let's consider those "radical" ideas:

1. A Rusyn/Hungarian (and a Romanian maybe??) metropolia within a real Patriarchate?

There is already a Romanian diocese in the USA. Creating a separate Rusyn/Hungarian metropolia "within a real Patriarchate" needs full and careful consideration. What is meant by "a real Patriarchate"? Antioch and All the East?

2. An ironclad agreement that all Rusyn traditions, chant and language be protected and honored.

"Rusyn" traditions and chant are protected and respected in the Mukachiv Eparchy. As to language, see the next point.


3. An agreement that within the non-Ukrainian metropolia(s) there be encouragement to use the vernacular.

There is serious encouragement within the Patriarchate of Kyiv-Halych and All Rus to learn and use vernacular languages, including English, French, Irish, Spanish, and Ukrainian. I should think that this applies to languages; dialects are problematic


4. Rome's full agree that the Patriarchate extend into the diaspora

Rome seldom argues with success. But Rome is less likely to take the initiative.

5. Along with #2, reinstitution of our traditional married
priesthood.

Married priests for North America are ordained by the Romanians and the Ukrainians. The Ruthenian bishops seem to be reluctant in the matter.


So the "radical ideas" are not all that radical.

Fr. Serge

Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: Fr Serge Keleher] #367786 08/13/11 10:37 PM
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Here in the Dallas area I understand the UGCC broke of from the Ruthenian church because the priest refused to say DL in Ukrainian. Of course this is all heresay.
This is very sad and reminds me a lot of Protestantism... If true. The UGCC also missed a golden opportunity to grow as well when th RC down the street closed imo. But then again I am not amember so I don't know all the inner workings and goings on.

Last edited by Dave in McKinney; 08/13/11 10:48 PM.
Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: Anna] #367789 08/14/11 12:52 AM
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This talk about the chances of what we want to see happen being low does not ultimately matter. We cannot predict what can happen, we can only work for what we think the Holy Spirit is leading the Church to do.


What would most people have thought about the chances of Eastern Catholicism resubmerging after Communism fell? Regardless of the probability and statistics calculations, a reflowering has occurred/is occurring. If that is something we can work on in this country, that is where I will spend my effort. I think one needs a constant heart of prayer for this, and a consistent set of actions that seek to bridge gaps and point to the fullness of the faith.

May the most holy Theotokos guide us into more unity and fidelity.

In XC,
J. Andrew

Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: Anna] #367792 08/14/11 02:07 AM
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A story:

A hurricane was about to hit a coastal region, and the authorities ordered everyone to evacuate the area. The police come by this house in a jeep, and see an old man sitting on the porch. "Come with us, old man. The storm's going to put this whole area under water". "No thanks", says the old man. "God will provide." And so the police move on.

The storm hits, and the water starts to rise. Soon, it's lapping around the porch, where the old man is still sitting on a rocking chair. A boat with National Guardsmen comes puttering down the flooded street. "Get in the boat, old man. We'll take you to safety". "No thanks", says the old man. "God will provide". And the boat moves on.

Soon the storm hits in ernest, and the rising waters force the old man first up to the second story, and finally, to the roof of his house. A helicopter flies over, and through a loud speaker the crew call to him, "We'll haul you up, old man. Grab onto the line". But the old man waves at them, and say, "No thanks. God will provide".

Finally, the rising waters tear the house from its foundations, throwing the old man into the swirling flood. He's pulled under, and as he begins to drown, he calls out to God, "O Lord, I have always trusted in you. Why have you abandoned me?"

And the voice of the Lord responds, "What do you mean, old man? First I sent you a jeep, then I sent you a boat, and finally I sent you a helicopter."

Re: Any News on a Metropolitan? [Re: JimG] #367798 08/14/11 03:50 AM
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Jaya Offline
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Originally Posted by JimG
In Houston, TX, there are both Byzantine and a Ukrainian churches.
Fr. Elias who is priest at the Byzantine church speaks Ukrainian and serves the Liturgy at the Ukrainian church when their priest is not available. I believe the Byzantines even altered their Liturgy time so that their priest could serve both churches.

Is this unusual?


Not in Tucson. We also have both a Byzantine and a Ukrainian church in town. When Fr Chirovsky, the Ukrainian priest, is out of town, our Byzantine priest serves the liturgy at the Ukrainian church. Both liturgies are usually at 10am, so the Ukrainians change theirs to 12:30 when our priest serves it. He has to serve in English, but the parishioners, most of whom are Ukrainian, are already becoming accustomed to this, as when Fr Chirovsky arrived a couple of years ago, he decided that the liturgy would be in English the first Sunday of every month.

Also, on Wednesday of Holy Week, it has happened that our priest is not able to offer the Sacrament of Anointing, and it was announced, and in the bulletin, that we were invited to go to the Ukrainian church for this service, which some of us did. Ditto when our priest was unexpectedly out of town on an emergency one year on Transfiguration.

Also, Fr Chirovsky gave a wonderful Lenten mission at our Byzantine church last year, which was open to parishioners of both parishes, and we had a good turnout from both. We also invite the Ukrainian church to have a booth at our annual Slavic festival, which they have done.

Last edited by Jaya; 08/14/11 03:54 AM.
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