[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe Thur:
[B]>>>They should be made to pay for the terrible thing they have done to worship.<<<

Paying for pews, thats a great concept.

JoeS

Dr. John,

No denying anything you said. On t'other hand, though, if it's a NEW church, or one undergoing significant renovation, one would hope that it be built or renovated to best accommodate and enhance the liturgical experiences which would take place within.

Hokay?


Peace,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

>>>Perhaps our hierarchs will revise the "Rubrics" to direct standing except during the Homily. And ordering the
removal of kneelers, another unneeded Latinization! Maybe they will even obey the First Ecumenical Council
and forbid kneeling on Sundays too!<<<

Dear Father,

Removing the kneelers will easily accomplish the purpose of ending kneeling on Sundays--and most other days, too. It has been my empirical observation that kneelers are the root cause of kneeling. In the Washington Metro area our parish in Annandale sponsors a mission in Montgomery County. A lot of people move back and forth between the two, depending on how they feel that Sunday. People who kneel at the home parish do NOT kneel at the mission. The only difference between the two is that the parish has kneelers, while the mission used chairs without kneelers. Obviously, then, the people who kneel at the former but not at the latter kneel not out of some deep theological principle, but out of force of habit, and because, let's face it, kneelers can be very comfy (compare your posture at the kneeler, with your butt against the pew seat, with the posture assumed in an ergonomic office chair). Put your head against the back of the pew in front, close your eyes, and off to dreamland. On the other hand, kneeling on the floor HURTS! But of course, kneeling is meant to be penitential, and that SHOULD imply a significant degree of discomfort. Some people tend to forget that correlation.

Thus, I suggest getting rid of the kneelers will by itself end the "kneeling problem". I would further suggest that a good excuse to do so could be found in the Americans with Diabilities Act, as well as various OSHA regulations (A guy could trip on the kneeler and break his neck--we wouldn't want to expose the Church to that liability risk, would we?).

So grab your socket wrench, and yank those kneelers today. Do it for safety's sake.

I've never been a big fan of the "yank the pews out" viewpoint.

I've been in parishes where there were no pews and witnessed first time visitors who could not find a comfort level and ended up leaving. When my wife was accompanying us to an OCA mission parish that had no pews she almost stopped coming. Finally, someone found a folding chair she could use. It was not a health thing for her. She just didn't want to stand for such a long time. What particularly bothered me was the attitude among some that almost equated Christianity with standing in worship...and that converts are just going to have to accept no pews. What about St Paul's dictum that we are to become all things to all people? Hey, I'm all in favor of restoring tradition to the Eastern Churches...but not everything is on the same level! I would say that the use of pews is not a latinization (look at the old Cathedrals in Europe). Pews are an American adaptation. I've seen them in Coptic Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox parishes. I think that there are greater issues to be concerned with than with yanking out pews.

IMO, the decision to remove pews should be a consensus decision of a parish.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dr John:

Why do you seem to add to any argument you make how your "hard working-class ancestors did this and that", thus validating your point? Don't you think others that disagree with you had equally hard-working ancestors? Yes your Greek ancestors fought hard and had to do with pews. Well good for them! We're not talking about them now, though. We are talking about us in 2001.

Dave,

Pews may have been around for a few hundred years in old european cathedrals, but the research I have read indicates that the Jesuits introduced them for their long sermons after the Prot. reformation. Prior to that RC's stood too.

anastasios

"look at the old Cathedrals in Europe"

Dave is right. Pews are not so much a latinization as a protestantization.

When you go to the great Western European Cathedrals, for example, you see places that were not intended to have pews, but pews have been installed in them in the period since the Protestant Revolution. It was imported from the Protestant communities -- even in the Latin Church -- and found its way into the Byzantine and Orthodox Churches in this country also as a result of our dominant Protestant religious culture. I have never seen an Orthodox Church in the Orthodox world with pews -- but here, we have them more commonly. Why? Because they are a sign of assimilation.

With all due respect for Dr. John and his struggling Boston Greek Orthodox community, I have visited several Greek Orthodox communities that did not purchase their facilities from someone else but rather built Greek style, Greek-looking churches from the ground up, complete with pews. They *built* new churches with pews in them. They would never do that in the Old Country. Why did they do it here? Because that's what the dominant religious culture in our country -- Protestantism -- has done, and that's what the Roman Catholics, under the influence of Protestantism, have done.

Brendan

So, part of the Protestants' protest consisted in sitting down, as opposed to standing up, for their beliefs?! Let us stand!

[This message has been edited by Kelly (edited 02-14-2001).]

I would question whether there were any theological reasons given for the advent of pews in Protestant churches. I think this is more of a cultural phenomenon than anything else.

For those who insist that pews must be removed to be genuinely Eastern, I would ask:

What do we say to those who insist that congregational singing (adopted by most Eastern Catholic congregations and many Orthodox congregations) is an innovation borrowed from the West? I've read that the Ruthenian Church adopted this only a couple of centuries ago. The traditional Eastern practice is to have the choir sing. (Believe it or not there are people who are against congregational singing. There are even a few similarly concerned to remove "Western" elements from chanting styles...as if Western style music cannot be used to praise God.)

What about the tradition of having men and women stand apart at Liturgy? Or having women wear veils in church?

Can the gospel only be proclaimed in a building with no pews? What adaptations of culture are admissable?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com



[This message has been edited by DTBrown (edited 02-14-2001).]

Dave,

Pews do not allow for easy movement. Pews do not allow for profound bows. Pews tend to turn worshipers into spectators. Pews do not allow as many people to join into worship as would be permitted if there were no pews.

If someone wishes to sit during liturgy benches can always be provided and be placed along the walls.

I would really enjoy worshiping as did the early Church and as did our anscestors before the advent of Protestantism.

Protestants talk a great deal about the Priesthood of all believers. But in a place filled with pews how do the "priests" move about in order to minister, either to God or to other worshipers? The only people free to worship, as long as pews exist, are those who are in the sanctuary.

Dan Lauffer

Is the only answer to force people to adopt an alien culture? When "standing" is presented as the only real way to worship God hardly anyone uses the benches put along the side walls. A newcomer will most likely not use them. They will soon figure they are not as "spiritual" as everyone else because they want to sit down once in awhile. I apologize if I sound a bit shrill on this but it really bugs me when pewless worship is extolled as the *only* way to worship God. I can count several situations where it was said of a person no longer attending Liturgy: "They didn't like all the standing" (as if that was some stumbling block akin to being unable to give up a loose moral life). This may come as a surprise to some people but God can be worshipped from a sitting down position.

The solution IMO is not to rip out pews and force people to adopt a different culture. Yes, there are advantages to pewless worship. But, if we are going to be serious about trying to introduce something alien to our culture then perhaps we could go a bit more gently into it than just ripping them out.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Sorry, anastasios, for waxing so eloquent on my forebears, but I get quite manic about it since what they and their counterparts did is my personal connection to Orthodoxy/Greekness and provides guidance on what we should be doing today. I truly believe that we need to foster these connections and extol them and learn from them. Without, however, slavishly copying what they did.

I'll make you a deal: tell us some of your family's memories, and I promise to wax eloquent about them too. (I take it from the name that you are Greek. What part of the patrida are your folks from? We're Arcadians.)

To Sharon, I got your point about new churches and not installing pews. However, considering our current culture, might we consider "La-Z-Boys" along the side walls? Unfortunately, many of the older guys in the parish would be searching for the remote to 'fast-forward' through the sermon!!

Blessings!

Dave,

I think you may be a bit overly dramatic. I can't imagine anyone having the courage to "rip out the pews". I'd certainly be in favor of it, but it isn't going to happen. Most Churches have pews, even most BC Churches, so I doubt that anyone salvation is in danger if a few Churches follow this pattern.

For me, as I've explained, it is not simply "some foreign culture" that pewless sanctuaries represent. It has much to do with Spiritual formation. Pews are a hindrance but I'm learning ways to get around them.

BTW I'm 54 and I stand the entire liturgy. In fact, since I'm in the choir, I begin and 9:30 and remain standing until around 11:45 a.m. No big deal. I just do it.

Dan Lauffer

Christ is in our Midst!

I found a simple solution to worshipping in a church where there are pews. I either stand at the pew in the front of the church where there is no pew in front and usually no one else there and worship of our God in the traditional eastern style with bows, metanias, etc at the appropriate times. If the pew has a wooden front with no room to do my bows, I stand at the far end of the pew along an outer aisle where I not block processions, people coming late to church, etc and still perform the physical aspects of my worship traditions. In some churches there will be, at the very back, an aisle in front of a pew---this is nice because I can perform my prostrations, bows, etc without offending or seeming confrontive to people behind me in the other two options and sit for the homily.

I must admit Pews can be nice if you have smallchildren, they can stand on the pew and see everything that is going on at church. My grandchildren,when we go to a church with pews, do their bows standing on the pews along with their papa and follow better than they do when they are standing on the floor. Most of the time however we are in a parish that has chairs along the walls and plenty of room to move around, venerate the icons, make our bows, move forward to the front of the church to attend to the Gospel reading, and feel the spirit and community of the Lord.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

As a Russian Orthodox authenticity nut (but I hope not a pharisee) who uses the Julian calendar (today is the feast of the Meeting of the Lord/Str’itenije: s prazdnikom!) and prays in Slavonic half the time, I will add to the ‘No pews! No pews!’ voices here. Pews are Protestant! But I’m not a standing-Nazi either (‘No seat for you!’). I sit some of the time. I say have chairs along the walls but facing front.

My church is set up like this but has wall-to-wall carpeting. (It’s a little secondhand Baptist church.) My favorite setup: hardwood floors, an Oriental rug or two (yet another small cultural reminder our religion wasn’t Slavic to begin with but really Middle Eastern) and the chairs as described above. No pews.

What about the tradition of having men and women stand apart at Liturgy? Or having women wear veils in church?

We’re not fanatical about enforcing them but we do them both.

Serge

Old World Rus’

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 02-16-2001).]

I would like to start a business in renting pews for those who want them. I would also like to begin a pew insurance division too.

RENT FEES:
Back pews: $50 per wk
Middle pews: $25 per wk
Front pews: $5 per wk

PEW INSURANCE:
Back pews: $100 per month
(makes sure you have a seat near the door)
Middle pews: $50 per month
(makes sure you don't feel you stand out in the crowd)
Front pews: Free
(first come first served)

Family packages with discount rates available.

Standing is free. "Standers" are our preferred customers because we'd rather be praying-and-a-singin' than collecting pew fees.

All collected fees go to those suffering from pewosis and pew sitting syndrome.


Joe