Hello:

I am looking for scholarly material on the question of church pews (adding them and more particularly removing them). I have a vague memory that there was an article on the subject in SVQ some years back. If anyone has a citation for that article or for any other such articles I would appreciate hearing from you.

Thanks.

William M. Klimon
http://www.gateofbliss.com

Dear William,

Quite a number of years ago, Fr. Andrij Chirovsky, Director of the Sheptysky Institute at St. Paul's University, 223 Main Street, Ottawa, ON K1S 1C4 pubished an article on seating in churches in the journal DIAKONIA. It had if I recall a somewhat tongue in cheek title: Anathama sit. You might want to check the indices of DIAKONIA or better yet contact Fr. Andrij

e-mail: sheptysky@ustpaul.uottawa.ca

In my own parish of St. Elias the Prophet, we have been able to keep the pews out. The assembly as a whole stands for the services. There are benches at the sides of the walls for those who find that they cannot stand throughout. This really helps to unite clergy and laity in one single action. It prevents the mentality that the solea, ambo and altar are the equivalent to a stage, while the nave becomes the place of the audience.

In your research be certain not to overlook the "official" liturgical texts. For the Byzantine Catholics these have been published in Church Slavonic. You will need to refer to these for the rubrics as their is a tendency to publish English language texts with "revised" rubrics, especially when it comes to sit, stand and kneel.

Except for a the references to the priest going to the "high place" or synthronon during the readings and being seated there, along with references to the bishop sitting in the nave on the cathedra during the reading of the Hours and the Enarxis, the texts are relatively silent about sitting. There are references to the bishop sitting to the north-west corner of the Holy Table at ordinations during the triple procession prior to the laying-on-of-hands. The texts to the best of my knowledge are silent in regards to seating of the assembly in the nave.

In the West the practice of fixed seating, apart from seating about the walls begins to appear in the 13th century. (Of course there has been choir stalls both in the East and West prior to this date. But this is another matter altogether and should not be confused with nave seating.) Nave seating does not really develop until the Reformation Period. The concept of worship changed during this period and so did the liturgical-architectural scheme and its appointments. The focus is upon the Word of God with a strong "academic" bent. Notice how the reformers abandoned vestments and took to the wearing of academic gowns or attire to officiate at services. The nave began to resemble the academic assembly hall and the minister the learned professor.

The Post-Tridentine Catholic Church was to some extent influenced by the architecture of the reformers both positively and negatively. Fixed seating or in many cases movable chairs in the nave thus became the norm.

When the Eastern Christians came to North America, they adopted the practice of the "majority". I do not know of any serious study on how and why this transition took place. It is certainly worthy of extensive research.

I am quite convinced that the fixed pew changes the way in which we worship in a very radical manner. The pew tends to define and confine the assembly. It is a true barrier between the nave and the altar, between the clergy and the laity. It is also a barrier to the full celebration of the services according to the received liturgical texts. All the liturgical services are impeded by them. One of the perplexing problems is that there is so little discussion about this issue from a liturgical perspective.

The best of luck in your research. In Christ,

David Kennedy, Protodeacon

It is good to see someone else trying to find a way to get rid of pews. Someone directed me to an article about a year and a half ago on the subject but I've lost it since.

Anecdotally, Father Loya encouraged profound bows and such during last Sunday's sermon. He again made reference to the difficulty of worshipping when pews are in the way. Someday, I suspect, they will be gone.

I pray that the someday is soon.

Dan Lauffer

>>>It is good to see someone else trying to find a way to get rid of pews.<<<

A midnight raid with a ratchet wrench, a chain saw, and a jerrycan of gasoline would work just fine. Since Ruthenians value money way above kneeling, once the pews are gone, they will never be replaced.

Dear Friends,
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Although St Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church is very traditional Byzantine, it has pews.

Fr. Bohdan Lypsky of blessed memory once gave a talk to students about why our Churches should not have pews.

The students were so inspired that they immediately went to get hammers and other instruments from the caretakers and were quite serious about getting rid of the pews. They were stopped, however . . .

The problem in that church is that the floor is sloping and so the pews are needed, so I am told, to keep people from falling forward.

I think, though, that most of us need to be taught how to stand.

This may sound funny, but a Monk showed me how to flatten my feet, relax my leg muscles etc. I found that I could stand comfortably for a long time without even moving. Is this my imagination? Is this the proper way to stand?

Also, the Old Rite Orthodox place an embroidered towel or mat on the floor when they are making prostrations. Something to do with not soiling the right hand with which one makes the Sign of the Cross. Is this done in other Churches? Is it a good practice to adopt?

Yours in repentance,

Alex

In the immortal words of His Grace Bishop Kallistos, "Take them out and BURN them!"

The Liturgy (not to mention the other services, especially Presanctified) is a wholly different experience when the worshiper has freedom to MOVE.

It's appalling what pews have done even in the services where the directives still specify (in English) profound bows or prostrations. I've been in parishes where nobody is "brave" enough to hit the aisles, and "prostration" appears to mean "bow your head at the neck just a teeny bit." Perhaps we should turn the question around from "shall we get rid of the pews" to "Why should our churches be built so that the rubrics can't really be followed?


"Friends Don't Make Friends Pray In Pews" (I'm still gonna do those T-shirts one of these days....)

Cheers,

Sharon


Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Pews in church:
We will be in the process of replacing the carpets in both the chapel and main church and we plan to get rid of quite a few pews but not all, unfortunately. There are still some hangers-on who do not want to part with the pews no matter what.
JoeS

Dear Friends,
Christ is among us!
As I told the altar servers at their convention a couple of years ago; "Pews are Protestant!" If I could get the Bishop's support, out they would all go, only to be replaced with stalls along the wall.

When I remodelled the Byzantine Church in Minneapolis the loudest shout went up about removing several rows of pews from the back of the Temple and reconfiguring the remainder. In fact two years after the renovation and after I had been transferred a small cadre even called me to find out where the removed pews had disappeared to, they intended to replace them! Imagine!

At one of my current parishes, we have what what be the best compromise. At St. Andrew Church we have movable portable pews. We can rearrange them in order to provide for prostrations and movement during the Divine Services. It is not the best, but it is a reasonable compromise.

Perhaps our hierarchs will revise the "Rubrics" to direct standing except during the Homily. And ordering the removal of kneelers, another unneeded Latinization! Maybe they will even obey the First Ecumenical Council and forbid kneeling on Sundays too!
The unworthy priest,
Bryan

Joe,

Why the carpet? Doesn't that destroy the acoustics of an Eastern Church? Sadly, pews with padded seats were purchased against the wishes of Father Loya. Even though we have hard floors the pews soaked up a good deal of the acoustics. Why not leave the carpet off?

Dan Lauffer

"Pews in church:
We will be in the process of replacing the carpets in both the chapel and main church and we plan to get rid of quite a few pews but not all, unfortunately. There are still some hangers-on who do not want to part with the pews no matter what.
JoeS"

Interesting thread...

Burning is too good for the pews. It is over too fast. They should be made to pay for the terrible thing they have done to worship.

They should be sold to non-Orthodox Churches (pews fetch good money), and be forced to listen to heresy for the rest of their days.

They can offer rest and comfort to the heterodox in this world (in case they will not experience such in the next).

an amused, but un-Christian, Christian

>>>They should be made to pay for the terrible thing they have done to worship.<<<

Christian,
Those who want pews should carry them in a procession on Good Friday three times around the temple as their cross. If cantors have to stand, then they should too.

JoeS,
Carpets? We are such funny people making our temples into living rooms for couch-potatoes. We install carpets; then we buy microphones and sound systems so the people can hear the cantor. Kinda like that Hollywood Fitness center having valet parking or taxpayers paying lots of money for a school gym but send our children to school on a bus. Or like spending mucho bucks on lawncare and water utilities only to chop off the heads of those little blades of green grass. How did we end up so fickle? Oh, the layers and layers of costs we stack up for no reason!

Here is a suggestion: Get rid of the gymns and the buses and the valet parking at the fitness center and invite everyone to church to make hundreds of prostrations without the pews and carpet. What a workout!!!

Another suggestion: In other churches, pews were paid for at one time by family members. We should charge pew-lovers a fee to rent a pew or sit on a pew bench.

Joe


[This message has been edited by Joe Thur (edited 02-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Joe Thur (edited 02-13-2001).]

Bishop Kallistos is my favourite theologian.
(He explains the Faith so well!)

However, I disagree with him when he says, "BURN THEM!"

We are called to be agents of sanctification, not destruction.

Cut them up, saw them, plane them, sand them.
Geso, eggs, dyes, gold leaf. Holy oil. Incense. Lampadas aflame.

Turn this evil wicked furniture into Holy Ikons. The benches of hell become the windows to heaven!

In the Greek Community in Boston, a cathedral was built (at Parker and Ruggles Streets) near the Museum of Fine Arts on Huntington Avenue. Obviously, they had money. (The church is gorgeous. But unfortunately, no parking.)

A lot of poor, working-class Greeks in the South End had a long walk to the Cathedral. So they established their own community in the South End. (Most of them were democrats, supporters of Venizelos and NOT supporters of the monarchy like at the Cathedral.) They pooled their finances, and purchased a building from the Eastern European Jews, which had originally been constructed as a Unitarian church in the 1840s. It had a balcony on three sides, a mahogany 'screen' constructed by the Jews to house the Torah in a niche, a fabulous Hook and Hastings pipe organ- now on an historic register, and mahogany everywhere. The Unitarian WASPS moved out when the 'immigrants' invaded the neighborhood; the Jews bought the building in the 1880s, and the poor Greeks bought the building in the 1910s. My grandparents were among the founders of this church. It had pews; big, heavy seats with racks for the hymnals, and a massive pipe organ.

The people were grateful for a place to worship. Although it had pews and a massive pipe organ, it was their own place -- and it was a church building, not a renovated supermarket, nor a storefront or the living room of a 'parish house'. So the 'white bread' folks couldn't accuse them of worshipping in some converted warehouse space -- it was a church. Pews? Who cared.
When you're poor, you make the best you can. I know that this was the case with all our Constantinopolitan peoples.

We were poot; we gave from our poverty; we had (good) pride to make sure that we were considered legitimate among the churches; and we wanted a suitable place to worship.

I know that some folks consider the presence of pews, stained glass, pipe organs, etc. to be a denigration of the 'legitimate' Byzantine tradition. But when you are dirt poor (and my family and their 'patrioties' were!!) you did the best you could. And when you purchased a church from 'them', you took it, were grateful for the space, and hoped against hope that you'd be able to pay the mortgage.

Maybe I'm turning Chinese with ancestor-worship, but as I get older I have come to appreciate the absolutely INCREDIBLE efforts of our ancestors, whether Greek, Arab, Ruthenian, Ukrainian or whatever. They did the best that they could in light of their low-wage, blue-collar jobs; and they were so proud of the fact that they hung together and 'made it'.

And as the grandson of these incredibly generous, hard-working, and faithful people, I'm PROUD that they were able to purchase their own Temples, replete with pews and all the other accoutrements of Western Christianity. But it was THEIRS. And we did it.

So, yeah, pews aren't what we had in the old country; but it's what we got in this country through hard work and generosity to purchase facilities. And I'm very reluctant to say that what they did was 'wrong'. Let's not make judgments about our grandparents and what they did. I'm so PROUD of my Nana and Grandpa -- and their Slavic and Arab counterparts -- and I only hope that I have the cohones to accomplish what they did.

May the Lord bless the memories of all our Byzantine/Constantinopolitan ancestors. And may we enjoy even a fraction of their chutzpah in doing the work of the Lord.

Blessings, y'all!

Dear Dave,

Have you ever tried to cut or plane an old pew? Old Oak only gets harder and harder. After 100 years it is harder than rock! This good idea has been thought before, and many a sharp blade has been broken, many a saw destroyed in the attempt.

Really old ones make nice garden or cemetery benches, and can withstand the elements. But how many benches can really be used in the Church cemetery? And then they only remind you of the tragedy they caused. Who needs another reason to weep in a cemetery?

But no, nothing Orthodox (like icons) can or should be made of them at all. It is a lost cause. They are ideally suited only to the heterodox, sell them, let them go and shed no tear at the loss.

Christian

>>>>> <<<<<<<

It was a compromise. Carpeting this time will only be up the center and side aisles and into the ambo and sanctuary areas. It wont be under the pews as before. Even though Im on council Im relatively new to the parish and still "wet behind the ears" so to speak. I say "Get what's gettable (is that a work?) and be thankful for partial victories".
And yes, removal of any portion of carpeting would notably improve the accoustics.
JoeS

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe Thur:
[B]>>>They should be made to pay for the terrible thing they have done to worship.<<<

Paying for pews, thats a great concept.

JoeS

Dr. John,

No denying anything you said. On t'other hand, though, if it's a NEW church, or one undergoing significant renovation, one would hope that it be built or renovated to best accommodate and enhance the liturgical experiences which would take place within.

Hokay?


Peace,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

>>>Perhaps our hierarchs will revise the "Rubrics" to direct standing except during the Homily. And ordering the
removal of kneelers, another unneeded Latinization! Maybe they will even obey the First Ecumenical Council
and forbid kneeling on Sundays too!<<<

Dear Father,

Removing the kneelers will easily accomplish the purpose of ending kneeling on Sundays--and most other days, too. It has been my empirical observation that kneelers are the root cause of kneeling. In the Washington Metro area our parish in Annandale sponsors a mission in Montgomery County. A lot of people move back and forth between the two, depending on how they feel that Sunday. People who kneel at the home parish do NOT kneel at the mission. The only difference between the two is that the parish has kneelers, while the mission used chairs without kneelers. Obviously, then, the people who kneel at the former but not at the latter kneel not out of some deep theological principle, but out of force of habit, and because, let's face it, kneelers can be very comfy (compare your posture at the kneeler, with your butt against the pew seat, with the posture assumed in an ergonomic office chair). Put your head against the back of the pew in front, close your eyes, and off to dreamland. On the other hand, kneeling on the floor HURTS! But of course, kneeling is meant to be penitential, and that SHOULD imply a significant degree of discomfort. Some people tend to forget that correlation.

Thus, I suggest getting rid of the kneelers will by itself end the "kneeling problem". I would further suggest that a good excuse to do so could be found in the Americans with Diabilities Act, as well as various OSHA regulations (A guy could trip on the kneeler and break his neck--we wouldn't want to expose the Church to that liability risk, would we?).

So grab your socket wrench, and yank those kneelers today. Do it for safety's sake.

I've never been a big fan of the "yank the pews out" viewpoint.

I've been in parishes where there were no pews and witnessed first time visitors who could not find a comfort level and ended up leaving. When my wife was accompanying us to an OCA mission parish that had no pews she almost stopped coming. Finally, someone found a folding chair she could use. It was not a health thing for her. She just didn't want to stand for such a long time. What particularly bothered me was the attitude among some that almost equated Christianity with standing in worship...and that converts are just going to have to accept no pews. What about St Paul's dictum that we are to become all things to all people? Hey, I'm all in favor of restoring tradition to the Eastern Churches...but not everything is on the same level! I would say that the use of pews is not a latinization (look at the old Cathedrals in Europe). Pews are an American adaptation. I've seen them in Coptic Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox parishes. I think that there are greater issues to be concerned with than with yanking out pews.

IMO, the decision to remove pews should be a consensus decision of a parish.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Dr John:

Why do you seem to add to any argument you make how your "hard working-class ancestors did this and that", thus validating your point? Don't you think others that disagree with you had equally hard-working ancestors? Yes your Greek ancestors fought hard and had to do with pews. Well good for them! We're not talking about them now, though. We are talking about us in 2001.

Dave,

Pews may have been around for a few hundred years in old european cathedrals, but the research I have read indicates that the Jesuits introduced them for their long sermons after the Prot. reformation. Prior to that RC's stood too.

anastasios

"look at the old Cathedrals in Europe"

Dave is right. Pews are not so much a latinization as a protestantization.

When you go to the great Western European Cathedrals, for example, you see places that were not intended to have pews, but pews have been installed in them in the period since the Protestant Revolution. It was imported from the Protestant communities -- even in the Latin Church -- and found its way into the Byzantine and Orthodox Churches in this country also as a result of our dominant Protestant religious culture. I have never seen an Orthodox Church in the Orthodox world with pews -- but here, we have them more commonly. Why? Because they are a sign of assimilation.

With all due respect for Dr. John and his struggling Boston Greek Orthodox community, I have visited several Greek Orthodox communities that did not purchase their facilities from someone else but rather built Greek style, Greek-looking churches from the ground up, complete with pews. They *built* new churches with pews in them. They would never do that in the Old Country. Why did they do it here? Because that's what the dominant religious culture in our country -- Protestantism -- has done, and that's what the Roman Catholics, under the influence of Protestantism, have done.

Brendan

So, part of the Protestants' protest consisted in sitting down, as opposed to standing up, for their beliefs?! Let us stand!

[This message has been edited by Kelly (edited 02-14-2001).]

I would question whether there were any theological reasons given for the advent of pews in Protestant churches. I think this is more of a cultural phenomenon than anything else.

For those who insist that pews must be removed to be genuinely Eastern, I would ask:

What do we say to those who insist that congregational singing (adopted by most Eastern Catholic congregations and many Orthodox congregations) is an innovation borrowed from the West? I've read that the Ruthenian Church adopted this only a couple of centuries ago. The traditional Eastern practice is to have the choir sing. (Believe it or not there are people who are against congregational singing. There are even a few similarly concerned to remove "Western" elements from chanting styles...as if Western style music cannot be used to praise God.)

What about the tradition of having men and women stand apart at Liturgy? Or having women wear veils in church?

Can the gospel only be proclaimed in a building with no pews? What adaptations of culture are admissable?

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com



[This message has been edited by DTBrown (edited 02-14-2001).]

Dave,

Pews do not allow for easy movement. Pews do not allow for profound bows. Pews tend to turn worshipers into spectators. Pews do not allow as many people to join into worship as would be permitted if there were no pews.

If someone wishes to sit during liturgy benches can always be provided and be placed along the walls.

I would really enjoy worshiping as did the early Church and as did our anscestors before the advent of Protestantism.

Protestants talk a great deal about the Priesthood of all believers. But in a place filled with pews how do the "priests" move about in order to minister, either to God or to other worshipers? The only people free to worship, as long as pews exist, are those who are in the sanctuary.

Dan Lauffer

Is the only answer to force people to adopt an alien culture? When "standing" is presented as the only real way to worship God hardly anyone uses the benches put along the side walls. A newcomer will most likely not use them. They will soon figure they are not as "spiritual" as everyone else because they want to sit down once in awhile. I apologize if I sound a bit shrill on this but it really bugs me when pewless worship is extolled as the *only* way to worship God. I can count several situations where it was said of a person no longer attending Liturgy: "They didn't like all the standing" (as if that was some stumbling block akin to being unable to give up a loose moral life). This may come as a surprise to some people but God can be worshipped from a sitting down position.

The solution IMO is not to rip out pews and force people to adopt a different culture. Yes, there are advantages to pewless worship. But, if we are going to be serious about trying to introduce something alien to our culture then perhaps we could go a bit more gently into it than just ripping them out.

Dave Ignatius DTBrown@aol.com

Sorry, anastasios, for waxing so eloquent on my forebears, but I get quite manic about it since what they and their counterparts did is my personal connection to Orthodoxy/Greekness and provides guidance on what we should be doing today. I truly believe that we need to foster these connections and extol them and learn from them. Without, however, slavishly copying what they did.

I'll make you a deal: tell us some of your family's memories, and I promise to wax eloquent about them too. (I take it from the name that you are Greek. What part of the patrida are your folks from? We're Arcadians.)

To Sharon, I got your point about new churches and not installing pews. However, considering our current culture, might we consider "La-Z-Boys" along the side walls? Unfortunately, many of the older guys in the parish would be searching for the remote to 'fast-forward' through the sermon!!

Blessings!

Dave,

I think you may be a bit overly dramatic. I can't imagine anyone having the courage to "rip out the pews". I'd certainly be in favor of it, but it isn't going to happen. Most Churches have pews, even most BC Churches, so I doubt that anyone salvation is in danger if a few Churches follow this pattern.

For me, as I've explained, it is not simply "some foreign culture" that pewless sanctuaries represent. It has much to do with Spiritual formation. Pews are a hindrance but I'm learning ways to get around them.

BTW I'm 54 and I stand the entire liturgy. In fact, since I'm in the choir, I begin and 9:30 and remain standing until around 11:45 a.m. No big deal. I just do it.

Dan Lauffer

Christ is in our Midst!

I found a simple solution to worshipping in a church where there are pews. I either stand at the pew in the front of the church where there is no pew in front and usually no one else there and worship of our God in the traditional eastern style with bows, metanias, etc at the appropriate times. If the pew has a wooden front with no room to do my bows, I stand at the far end of the pew along an outer aisle where I not block processions, people coming late to church, etc and still perform the physical aspects of my worship traditions. In some churches there will be, at the very back, an aisle in front of a pew---this is nice because I can perform my prostrations, bows, etc without offending or seeming confrontive to people behind me in the other two options and sit for the homily.

I must admit Pews can be nice if you have smallchildren, they can stand on the pew and see everything that is going on at church. My grandchildren,when we go to a church with pews, do their bows standing on the pews along with their papa and follow better than they do when they are standing on the floor. Most of the time however we are in a parish that has chairs along the walls and plenty of room to move around, venerate the icons, make our bows, move forward to the front of the church to attend to the Gospel reading, and feel the spirit and community of the Lord.

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

As a Russian Orthodox authenticity nut (but I hope not a pharisee) who uses the Julian calendar (today is the feast of the Meeting of the Lord/Str’itenije: s prazdnikom!) and prays in Slavonic half the time, I will add to the ‘No pews! No pews!’ voices here. Pews are Protestant! But I’m not a standing-Nazi either (‘No seat for you!’). I sit some of the time. I say have chairs along the walls but facing front.

My church is set up like this but has wall-to-wall carpeting. (It’s a little secondhand Baptist church.) My favorite setup: hardwood floors, an Oriental rug or two (yet another small cultural reminder our religion wasn’t Slavic to begin with but really Middle Eastern) and the chairs as described above. No pews.

What about the tradition of having men and women stand apart at Liturgy? Or having women wear veils in church?

We’re not fanatical about enforcing them but we do them both.

Serge

Old World Rus’

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 02-16-2001).]

I would like to start a business in renting pews for those who want them. I would also like to begin a pew insurance division too.

RENT FEES:
Back pews: $50 per wk
Middle pews: $25 per wk
Front pews: $5 per wk

PEW INSURANCE:
Back pews: $100 per month
(makes sure you have a seat near the door)
Middle pews: $50 per month
(makes sure you don't feel you stand out in the crowd)
Front pews: Free
(first come first served)

Family packages with discount rates available.

Standing is free. "Standers" are our preferred customers because we'd rather be praying-and-a-singin' than collecting pew fees.

All collected fees go to those suffering from pewosis and pew sitting syndrome.


Joe

Joe,

That sounds like a sound business venture. I hope it works. A bit of levity is just what we needed.

Dan Lauffer

JoeS writes:

[It was a compromise. Carpeting this time will only be up the center and side aisles and into the ambo and sanctuary areas. It wont be under the pews as before.]

Since I belong to the same Orthodox parish as JoeS and am also on the church council, I will add my two cents worth.

If it was up to our priest, the pews would go. In fact, he is already talking about eliminiating the first two rows when the floor is done over.
But to eiminate all the pews would cause a major catastrophe in the parish. Our church building is 26 years old. Prior to it's being built we worshipped in a small rented Episcopal chapel for eleven or twelve years. Many people worked very hard and labored long for us to have the beautiful Church and Chapel we have now. And, with the help of God, we payed it all off within 14 years.
Many of those pews were donated by some of our parishioners that were teenagers at the time. Each pew cost from $300 to $600 at the time and these kids worked summer jobs to pay them off. So you can see the emotional reaction there would be if they were suddenly taken out. Especially since some of them were donated in memory of a loved one.
As far as the carpeting, I don't think getting rid of it except for the aisles will be a problem. And yes, it will improve the acoustics a lot.
Since I am the one who vacuums all the rugs in the main church, chapel, vestibule, choir loft, and cry room (yeh we even have a cry room that Fr wants to get rid of) every week I'm am praying for solid floors. Yoy Boshe! Do you know what it's like trying to get an upright vacuum cleaner in each pew s
and undernearth each pew? Takes me 3 to 4 hours every week.

Bob

Oh Lordy - the cry room.

Call me a heretical Protestant, but I am grateful we have a cry room, for two reasons.

One is for the obvious - loudly wailing children. I don't think that the sound of children is sacreligious - far from it - but some kids have such incredible lungpower that they really CAN drown out Father & compete with the cantor. Other kids (and their harried parents!), especially when very young, sometimes need a less stimulating space than the main body of the Temple.

The other reason hits my family hard - neither of my children can tolerate much incense. (Truth be known, I have a problem with it myself - the only way I get through Liturgy is with lots of water.) Yes, incense is wonderful, it's holy Tradition, etc - it's also a tremendous respiratory irritant. We have nice, absorbent carpet, and padded pews - the stuff never fully dissipates. The cry room lets my kids participate in the Liturgy while still being able to breathe.


Pullin' on my asbestos underwear....



Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

"Call me a heretical Protestant, but I am grateful we have a cry room, for two reasons.

One is for the obvious - loudly wailing children. I don't think that the sound of children is sacreligious - far from it - but some kids have such incredible lungpower that they really CAN drown out Father & compete with the cantor. Other kids (and their harried parents!), especially when very young, sometimes need a less stimulating space than the main body of the Temple."

I actually think a small soundproofed crying area with a window is not a bad thing at all -- especially for parents with very young babies and toddlers. Of course, like everything else it can be abused (used as an excuse by parents to let their kids do what they want during the liturgy, or used with children who are old enough to behave), but having a small area available for those with small ones is a good thing for everyone concerned, in my opinion.

Brendan

>>>With all due respect for Dr. John and his struggling Boston Greek Orthodox community, I have visited several Greek Orthodox
communities that did not purchase their facilities from someone else but rather built Greek style, Greek-looking churches from the
ground up, complete with pews. They *built* new churches with pews in them. They would never do that in the Old Country. Why did
they do it here? Because that's what the dominant religious culture in our country -- Protestantism -- has done, and that's what the
Roman Catholics, under the influence of Protestantism, have done.<<<

I think particularly of St. Katherine's on Carlyn Springs Road, built in the round, with custom-made, curved pews that must have cost a very LARGE fortune to manufacture and install. The effect is most disconcerting, the altar is rather cramped and difficult to see from the edges, and the acoustics are awful. On the other hand, when the parish ordered the Church, it was undoubtedly one of the most "hip" ecclesial structures in Northern Virginia, looking very much like the spaceship in which Michael Renny and Gort landed on the Mall in "The Day the Earth Stood Still". But does it look and feel like an Orthodox temple? Not very much. More like a highly decorated version of a Unitarian meeting house.

>>>I actually think a small soundproofed crying area with a window is not a bad thing at all -- especially for parents with very young babies
and toddlers.<<<

Whatever happened to the Cone of Silence from "Get Smart"?

DrJ: Sorry, anastasios, for waxing so eloquent on my forebears, but I get quite manic about it since what they and their counterparts did is my personal connection to Orthodoxy/Greekness and provides guidance on what we should be doing today.

a: No problem. I unfortunately don't have the same connection with my forebearers. Due to several generations of the men in my family on both sides dying at early ages, then my immediate family's move 800 miles away from the nucleas (NW Ohio) family traditions were really not passed on.

DrJ: I truly believe that we need to foster these connections and extol them and learn from them. Without, however, slavishly copying what they did.

a: Sounds reasonable to me. I agree. You tended to sound slightly like you were siding with the slavish side, though, so I objected, but I understand your position now.

DrJ: I'll make you a deal: tell us some of your family's memories, and I promise to wax eloquent about them too. (I take it from the name that you are Greek. What part of the patrida are your folks from? We're Arcadians.)

a: I am Greek "in name only." Actually anastasios is my Christian name. My legal name (also the name I go by in the "real" world is Dustin. I am as German/Dutch as can be (a smidget of Celtic in me to keep things kickin'!) I am an ex-Protestant (explains my fervor a little!). A most interesting joke from God though is my relationship with my friend Mike. He is 100% Greek, but his mother turned Protestant. So the German Greek Catholic debates the Protestant Greek!!! It is funny at times--his dad, who is totally a nonreligious guy otherwise, is always like "MIKE, LISTEN TO THIS GUY---HE KNOWS GREEK STUFF MORE THAN YOU!!" (ie cuz I am Byzantine and Mike isn't! Orthodox=Greek to him!)

I do have to say my one glorification of ancestors would have to be my great grandmother Vera, who was a German immigrant whose husband died at 35, leaving her with a 12 year old boy; she turned down a marriage proposal and worked to ensure her son would never be mistreated. She is probably enjoying heaven with your hardworking ancestors, Dr. John! Eternal Memory!

anastasios

"Orthodox=Greek to him!"

I have a pretty funny anecdote relating to that story, Dustin.

We have a young child and one of the mothers of a child in his playgroup is Greek. Well, one day the playgroup is at our house and she's there, looking around, and can't help but notice our icon corner. The conversation went something like this (B is us, G is our Greek neighbor/friend)--

G: "Icons? You Orthodox?"

B: "Yes"

G: "*Greek* Orthodox?"

B: "No, not Greek Orthodox"

G: "Well, what other kind of Orthodox is there"

B: "We're in the OCA"

G: "The what?"

B: "The OCA, the Orthodox CHurch in America"

G: "What's that?"

B: "It's an Orthodox Church"

G: "But it's not Greek, is it? Doesn't sound Greek..."

B: "No, it's not"

G: "Hmmm", shaking head, "I thought all Orthodox were Greek Orthodox"

B: "No, that's not true, what about the Russians?"

G: "But the Russians aren't really Orthodox like the Greeks are. Are you telling me you're Russian Orthodox?"

B: "No, we're American Orthodox"

G: "There's no such thing. Anyway, why are you hanging icons on the wall like that?"

B: "That's an icon corner"

G: "Never seen anything like that in my life"

B: "Really?" somewhat incredulously, but straining to be polite, "It's an Orthodox custom"

G: "Well, it's not a Greek Orthodox thing, it must be a Russian thing" more head shaking.

The conversation then drifted on to our children, but this was a real howler. Really, I'm not making this stuff up.

Brendan

"I think particularly of St. Katherine's on Carlyn Springs Road"

Or St George in Bethesda -- pews *and* with an elongated nave (but with a nice Greek dome, after all). Or St. Sophia's, even. They all have pews, and none of them were inherited from a previous occupant.

Are there any BC Churches in America which are faithful to our patrimony regarding pews? If not, are there are Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Churches in America that are? I've never worshiped in that kind of setting. I would surely like to.

Dan Lauffer

I'm not sure that seat-less churches do represent 'our patrimony'. (Pews may not be 'traditional', but the use of chairs certainly is.)

When one examines the liturgical hours (i.e., the 'office'), we find 'kathismata', literally, 'sitting stuff'. The psalti would chant these beautiful poetic stanzas while the community sat and listened. Then the deacon (nag, nag, nag!!) would once again appear and sing: "Orthoi!", i.e., 'be upright', i.e., stand up.

The priest's chair was behind the altar, along with chair-lets for the 'lesser clergy', but of course the bishop got his own mother-of-all-chairs out front!!

There are too many clues to consider the idea of 'seatless churches' to be sacrosanct. Especially the fact that our Byzantine liturgical practices oftentimes don't know when to call it quits. (I wonder if first millenial ushers periodically ducked out for coffee and a smoke like our contemporary ones?)

Blessings!

Dear Dan,

I know St. Michael's Russian Catholic Church in Manhattan has no pews. If you are ever in New York City, I'd recommend attending Divine Liturgy there. They fully follow Russian Orthodox traditions and the same calendar. (This is true of all Russian Catholic parishes) The only difference is they are in communion with Rome. If I lived closer, I would go there every Sunday.

In Christ,

Joseph

Are there any BC Churches in America which are faithful to our patrimony regarding pews? If not, are there are Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Churches in America that are? I've never worshiped in that kind of setting. I would surely like to.
Dan Lauffer

>>>Is the only answer to force people to adopt an alien culture? When "standing" is presented as the only real way to worship God hardly
anyone uses the benches put along the side walls. A newcomer will most likely not use them. They will soon figure they are not as
"spiritual" as everyone else because they want to sit down once in awhile. I apologize if I sound a bit shrill on this but it really bugs me
when pewless worship is extolled as the *only* way to worship God. I can count several situations where it was said of a person no
longer attending Liturgy: "They didn't like all the standing" (as if that was some stumbling block akin to being unable to give up a loose
moral life). This may come as a surprise to some people but God can be worshipped from a sitting down position.<<<

Ah, David, I think you overreact. First of all, in the Byzantine Tradition, there have always been benches placed along the side walls of the nave in which people were allowed to sit. However, it was never a proportion of one seat per butt. People were expected to stand, at least for most of the Liturgy (which was much longer then than now). But, if one tired, it was permissable to sit, or even to leave and return. In the Christian East, the believer enters into the Liturgy as into an ongoing encounter with the Kingdom of God. It is not a matter of the aggregation of individual Christians into the corporate worship of the community. Thus, it is most unusual for any Orthodox liturgy to start on time, or for most of the people to be there when the celebrations start. Orthros begins when it begins. Some people are there at the start, others come in the middle, others at the end. Orthros segues into the Divine Liturgy whenever Orthros is over; thus all times are approximate, and it is not unusual for people to be entering right up to the Little Entrance, if not later (though I think we can agree that everyone should be present at the beginning of the Liturgy of the Faithful (The doors! The doors!, and all that). And, with services that sometimes last for six hours or more, it is entirely permissable, even appropriate, for some people to leave, take a breather (literally) and come back in.

Second, you overestimate the effect that this "strangeness" might have on visitors. Today, for instance, I took the 7th and 8th Grade ECF classes from my (pew-ridden) parish to visit the local Melkite establishment, which has chairs but encourages standing ("Chairs are for the elderly, the infirm and the pregnant", according to the priest, who also got my fervent thanks for saying that "kneeling on Sunday denies the Resurrection". Amen and Amen!

Certainly, it was strange for the kids to stand during the liturgy, but it was strange for them to be attending Orthros, and it was strange for them to hear exotic Melkite chants in Arabic, Greek and English, instead of the familiar Prostopinje. And it was strange of them to receive the Holy Mysteries by intinction instead of on the spoon. But it did not alienate them; quite the opposite. The were absolutely enthralled by the fact that they could actually bow. They loved the fact that they could move around, and gather in front of the Royal Doors for the reading of the Gospel (not to mention venerating the Sacred Scriptures after the reading in Orthros). The people of the parish made them feel more than welcome, moving them to the front so that they could be closest to the priest. All this is utterly new to them, having been raised in the "Latin rite of the Byzantine Catholic Church", as somebody once called the Ruthenians. I think a lot of them would be more than happy to see the pews go at Epiphany. In any event, our new temple will not have any.

By the way, I don't know if it was Father's little speech about denying the Resurrection, or my general theory that kneelers encourage kneeling, but a couple of the kids, and one of the adults, who are regular kneelers at my parish, never bent a knee in this pewless Melkite church.

I must say I am enjoying this forum.

Burn em'
Chain Saws!
Yee Haw!

note: I find it interesting that many members of my ultra nationalist ukrainianian church who say "ziss iz Ykrainian Church!" wants the pews. Have they ever been to Ukraine ?

I know St. Michael's Russian Catholic Church in Manhattan has no pews. If you are ever in New York City, I'd recommend attending Divine Liturgy there. They fully follow Russian Orthodox traditions and the same calendar. (This is true of all Russian Catholic parishes) The only difference is they are in communion with Rome. If I lived closer, I would go there every Sunday.

St Michael’s is awesome — I second the recommendation. I’ve been to Saturday Vespers there twice and Sunday Liturgy there once. One correction: for some strange reason I don’t know, they use the Western date for Easter/Pascha. Our Lady of Fatima, the Russian Catholic church in San Francisco, uses the Orthodox paschalion and Gregorian dates for fixed-date feasts, just like the OCA, whose typikon they use. Liturgically St Michael’s looks, sounds and feels just like my own church.

Serge

Old World Rus’

"Orthodox paschalion and Gregorian dates for fixed-date feasts, just like the OCA"

Actually, in the OCA the Bishop can permit parishes to follow the Old Calendar for fixed feasts, and a few of the local parishes here in DC do (including the Cathedral, where both calendars are followed, one by the English-language community and one by the Russian community).

Brendan

Actually, in the OCA the Bishop can permit parishes to follow the Old Calendar for fixed feasts, and a few of the local parishes here in DC do (including the Cathedral, where both calendars are followed, one by the English-language community and one by the Russian community).

Knew that about the OCA, specifically Alaska (the Orthodox native peoples — Aleuts (actually Russian-Aleut creoles with Russian last names) and Tlingits — are traditional) and a few churches in the lower 48 states that refused the change, so a compromise was worked out. (Possibly after a couple of church defections to ROCOR.) Didn’t know that about St Nicholas in DC. I was there recently for the tail end of Vespers. Most impressive.

Serge
who is on the Julian calendar but not vociferous about it — just a cultural authenticity nut

Old World Rus’

"Are there any BC Churches in America which are faithful to our patrimony regarding pews? If not, are there are Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Churches in America that are? I've never worshiped in that kind of setting. I would surely like to.
Dan Lauffer"

Dear Dan,

Some people would say if you have never done it, then its not part of your patrimony!

It still might be an interesting new experience, however.

Olga Nimchek

>>>Some people would say if you have never done it, then its not part of your patrimony!<<<

A child taken from his family and raised by strangers grows up knowing little of his true family's heritage. One day (like in a Dickens novel), he learns that he has come into his inheritance, and that treasures beyond his experience are now his. Those treasures are still his patrimony, even if he doesn't yet know what they are, or how to use them.

>>>Some people would say if you have never done it, then its not part of your patrimony!<<<

Mebbe so, mebbe not. When I was received into the Church, our Liturgy was a lot less Latinized than in some quarters, but it still bore the marks. Little by little, things have been restored. With each "change," (not really a change, but the parish had never "done it that way before") the Liturgy made more sense as a whole. I can remember several "Oh THAT'S the way it's supposed to be!" epiphanies - none so powerful as the first time we were privileged to have a Deacon with us. **sigh**

Seems like there's a reason for most everything prescribed in our liturgical tradition. We sophisticated modern folk tend to think we know best, and BOY do we value our precious comfort, but time and again, those primitive unwashed Fathers with their old fashioned ascetical notions.... well, they're in heaven, and we think we're doing well to be sitting in air-conditioned comfort on padded pews, glancing at our watches until the 40 minute Liturgy is over & we can go get a cup of coffee.

We've tried pews. Can anyone honestly say they've enhanced worship?

In Christ,

Sharon