I heard a talk by Thomas Hopko saying that when we evangelize it is easy to fall into the trap of promoting the external trappings of our Liturgy, Icons, and the beautiful structure of our Churches (physically)

He stated (what I understood) that we should not evangelize these things but only of the Basic Dogma of the Church. They must first believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God is The Father and has revealed Himself to us.

Then and only then should one be allowed to know the workings of orthodox religion. (little o)

I personally have fallen into the trap - look at how beautiful our church is - this Icon - the Horos - the Iconostatis, the chanting etc. etc. trying to teach from that standpoint.

But Thomas Hopko says NO - they must believe first - then you can reveal The Holy Mysteries to them..

This is why Catechumens used to be allowed into only certain portions of the Divine Liturgy - and of course often left out of the Divine Liturgies I've attended are the litanies to the Catechumens (who i believe are then excused from the Nave to go to Catechism).

I'm sure someone will answer this post and I'm curious about your thoughts on the matter.

John

I, a poor Roman, beg the indulgence (but not the purgatorial kind) of my Eastern brothers, but is there not a story of Kyivian emissaries who recommended the True Faith to St Volodomyr based on their experience of the beauty of the liturgy? Something of being unable to distinguish earth from heaven?

So let beauty draw them if it will. Or if it is mathematics, or poetry, or wine, or just coming into church to get out of the rain. Grace builds on nature.

It is beauty that will save the world.

I agree with the beauty of the Liturgy. Actually of all the
"things" the Liturgy has is what attracted me.

I'd also like to do more research on the Catechumens of old.
and the penitents.
My understanding was when you sinned in the ancient past the penitent would beg forgiveness of all who entered at the front door for a while - and not be allowed entry till you showed your repentence and longing to belong. (so we still Knock on the doors)

In our church - they literally "KNOCK" on the doors asking for entrance (at Pascha) It is very beautiful.

They do the same at funerals ... the doors are closed and they knock to gain entrance ... and when they leave we sing "All you who have been baptized ..."

So I guess I am guilty of loving everything in the Byzantine Church - including all the beautiful golden things - I can't really ask others not to be attracted to those things but Thomas Hopko simply states that we should not evangelize from that standpoint (see my focus on catechumens)

That is why the deacon first announces the Litany of the Catechumens and then urges them to leave. In the first centuries of Christianity this was not confined to words, they would go about and make sure that not a single non-baptized person would remain in church.

Now the canons have changed. Anyone can become a witness of the Holy Mysteries, even those who just dropped by out of idle curiosity. The very concept of Catechumens was lost long ago, but many clergymen deem it necessary to revive it. Why then are the words of the deacon and the prayer of the Church for Catechumens still preserved?

In pre-revolutionary Russia there was a book entitled "The Reference Book of a Clergyman" which states the following, "In many parts of the world many people turn to Orthodoxy, as well as there are converts to Orthodoxy from other Christian denominations. Our Church takes care of all of its children no matter where and prays before the One Who enlightens souls and bodies of all the Catechumens irrespective of the horrendous distances lying between them. Besides, there are children who got their Orthodox names through the ritual of Orthodox naming, but who have not been baptized yet... Due to that the Catechumen prayers will never lose their significance and role and will remain within the Liturgy as long as the Church of Christ is alive on the earth."

from Orthodoxphotos.com

The odd thing today, though, is we dismiss the catechumens, but not casual visitors who are not even Christian, let alone Catholic Orthodox Christians. I don't know about other parishes, but at Holy Transfiguration, we have many adult catechumens--and not just people who are converting because they are marrying a Melkite. And we do, indeed, dismiss them and escort them from the nave after the Liturgy of the Catechumens. But, as I said, other non-Christians can stay.

It's inconsistent, but who cares--I think the dismissal of the catechumens is still a vitally important part of the catechumenate, not the least because it impresses upon the catechumens the awesome gift they will be receiving, and the responsibility they will be taking upon themselves. It also seems to make the yearning for communion stronger, and therefore strengthens the zeal of those to be baptized.

I am undecided whether all those who do not intend or are unable to receive communion should leave at the beginning of the Liturgy of the Eucharist. The Fathers were fairly insistent that if you are present for the Liturgy of the Eucharist, you ought to receive, and they complained about people who, because of scrupulousness, refused to receive. It would be good to restore the notion of communion as a sacrament of unity, but I'm not sure what the broader ramifications of a change in practice might be.