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#369898 - 10/03/11 10:25 PM Re: Discerning what to accept from the Pope [Re: Carson Daniel]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6017
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
Make of my comments what you wish.


I did, Carson. That's why I treated you as I would a frat boy barging into a dorm room bull session having imbibed a bit too much Blatz.

Quote:
I'm really not interested in your ecclesiastical observations


And we're not really interested in yours, but the difference is, we're not imposing ours on you.

Quote:
Nor am I interested in your remarks about whether or not my ex Protestantism means what you think it means.


You should never have mentioned it then, or prefaced some of your arguments with "I heard a lot of this talk when I was a Protestant". As my kids like to say when a guy passes us at 90 mph in his Mercedes, "He's compensating for his shortcomings".

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#369899 - 10/03/11 10:28 PM Re: Discerning what to accept from the Pope [Re: Carson Daniel]
Carson Daniel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 5496
Loc: Joliet, Illinois
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Keep it up!

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#369900 - 10/03/11 10:32 PM Re: Discerning what to accept from the Pope [Re: Carson Daniel]
Scotty Online   shocked
Member

Registered: 03/08/10
Posts: 102
Loc: MI
This thread seems to be going south!

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#369906 - 10/03/11 11:06 PM Re: Discerning what to accept from the Pope [Re: Carson Daniel]
Carson Daniel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 5496
Loc: Joliet, Illinois
Agreed.

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#369908 - 10/04/11 12:46 AM Re: Discerning what to accept from the Pope [Re: StuartK]
JDC Offline
Member

Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 351
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I very much appreciate your last post before the kids started squabbling, Stuart. It adds quite a lot to the conversation.

I hoped to clarify a few points.

Originally Posted By: StuartK
For most of human history, contraception was either (a) abortifactant; or (b) closely associated with magic and sorcery. Given those parameters, a universal loathing of the practice was and remains understandable;


And yet the name "onanism" which we all agreed referred to contraception (if among other things) denotes a method not nearly so impressive as abortion or magic. Of the popular modern methods, onanism most resembles the use of a condom, if not quite precisely in the order of operations.

It's interesting that things have strayed so far from the consensus that "God slew Onan for Onanism".

The bulk of the debate seems to ignore or forget that:

Originally Posted By: StuartK
an authentic, Eastern Christian approach would, as a matter of principle, uphold the fullness of the Tradition: i.e., any attempt to regulate the number of children or the spacing of children, is falling short of God's intention.


I am getting used to a bit of anti-Roman bias in your perspective. I suppose it's understandable. I expect mine is pro.

You seem to take issue with the Latin use of "natural" and "artificial" as terms for methods, as here:

Originally Posted By: StuartK
...methods used were "natural" or "artificial" (itself an artificial distinction)


And yet, when you discuss the Eastern perspective, you find the Eastern Church arriving at the same distinctions:

Originally Posted By: StuartK
the [Eastern] Church would encourage the use of so-called natural methods (recognizing that this in itself falls short of perfection). And for those for whom, because of physical or spiritual factors, such methods are either impractical or inappropriate, the Church would also allow the use of non-abortifactant "artificial" means.


At least you've put it in scare quotes for the East as well. Still, I think you've muddled up the thinking on it, and I invite you to consider the possibility that if both East and West agree on something, you ought to give it another look.

Artificial means draw their efficacy by physically or chemically blocking the ordinary function of the body. Natural means, so-called, draw their efficacy from the absence of the act. It is the difference between gastric bypass and skipping lunch. There is a material difference.

As for the rest (Rome is too legalistic, and Western Europeans are uptight and afraid of sex) okay, and water is wet. Still and all, frankly I find it faithless when some doctrine is dismissed or attacked on the basis of claiming some historical bias on the part of the Church. These are the arguments constantly used for Priestesses, abortion, fornication, divorce, etc. That doesn't mean you're wrong, but I don't see any use in a Church so mired in historical baggage that it's completely missed the mark and wildly misled people. Certainly such a thing can't be of God.


Aside, you may not have been paying much attention to the admittedly tiny portion of the debate, but as the modern Latin Church has found enthusiasm for NFP, and pushes it as a newfound virtue, there is a minority who hold that the new current is too permissive, that NFP is not a free pass to avoiding children, that intention must be considered, and that NFP undertaken without grave cause (while not comparable with artificial means) is not blameless, as HV would seem to agree. Mostly this perspective is handled by the Angry Traditionalist Latin Massers, but nobody pays any attention to us.

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#369911 - 10/04/11 12:59 AM Re: Discerning what to accept from the Pope [Re: jjp]
JDC Offline
Member

Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 351
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: jjp
A poll of the current Roman Catholic laity says the opposite of what you assert.


If you are looking to find what is good, holy, and true, a poll of the current Roman Catholic laity will be about as useful as a map drawn by a blind agoraphobic cartographer.

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#369918 - 10/04/11 01:34 AM Re: Discerning what to accept from the Pope [Re: Carson Daniel]
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 8894
Loc: Massachusetts
In reading the posts of the last couple of days to this thread, I discern that there exists an inability on the part of some members to understand that messages warning of the necessity for civility in discussion and debate have universality of application - that such do not apply solely to the thread in which they are posted.

The discussion here on the part of those same posters has passed well beyond the bounds of what passes for civil intercourse in polite society. In fact, the quality of contributions and argumentation is beginning to resemble that of adolescents in their most unattractive moments.

Thanks to those who have contributed meaningfully to this thread. The thread is closed.
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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