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#369209 - 09/15/11 07:27 PM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: catholicsacristan]
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Member
Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 1822
Loc: Oregon
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Can anyone provide text or a scan of the original Ukrainian? I don't want to do this because of copyright issues. The book can be ordered here, however.
Edited by DTBrown (09/15/11 07:35 PM)
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#369210 - 09/15/11 08:12 PM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: DTBrown]
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Member
Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 351
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Can anyone provide text or a scan of the original Ukrainian? I don't want to do this because of copyright issues. The book can be ordered here, however. There are no copyright issues at all. A few lines from a work of this size certainly represents fair use. And anyway it's a catechism. Does anyone really want to say "you don't get to know the Holy Faith unless you buy a copy!"?
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#369212 - 09/15/11 08:27 PM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: DTBrown]
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Member
Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 351
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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I don't know the state of the work. I'm not paying close enough attention, but if it has been released and this is a final and completed draft, I can't see the harm in a few lines. If you are proficient enough in the language to do it, you could scan it, and block out all but the sentences in question. But whatever. Patience is a virtue. We can practice it by waiting for the official translation.
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#369213 - 09/15/11 09:41 PM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: danman916]
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Member
Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 1090
Loc: Texas/USA
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I'm surprised anyone would expect the Catechism of the UGCC would NOT affirm belief in papal infallibilty (under the usual conditions).
That's part of the reason we're CATHOLIC and not Eastern Orthodox.
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#369214 - 09/15/11 09:45 PM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: sielos ilgesys]
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Member
Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 220
Loc: Pittsburgh
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Not sure what the ecumenical dialogue has been about. Much ado about nothing I suppose. The dialogue has gotten us to the point of seeing the post-schism councils as not ecumenical in the proper sense of the word, but we are still going to follow their rather lopsided definitions?
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#369216 - 09/15/11 11:16 PM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: ByzBob]
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Member
Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 1090
Loc: Texas/USA
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All of us (Orthodox & Catholics alike) have been following lopsided definitions for years. Dogmatic formularies develop organically. We lurch, stumble and grope our way toward the Kingdom of God; and do the best we can with what we've got.
What it boils down to is that our Churches are imperfect. After all, it's an imperfect world.
This comes as a bit of a shock to some people. It came as a relief to me.
Edited by sielos ilgesys (09/15/11 11:17 PM)
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#369217 - 09/15/11 11:37 PM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: sielos ilgesys]
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Member
Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 220
Loc: Pittsburgh
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I see nothing organic about Pastor Aeternus, nor can I fathom it being dogmatic. I had hope that Rome was coming around to this view, but alas I don't think that will be the end result.
This should be the death knell for the ecumenical effort with the Orthodox (I'm sure they'll continue to meet, but I don't think they will make substantial progress). If the Eastern Catholic Churches are still beholden to formulas that will never be acceptable to the Orthodox then why play this game any longer?
I don't mean to sound too pessimistic here, but I was hoping for a more historical approach on this question than simply regurgitating the peculiar 19th century definition. Hopefully there will be more to it, but I somehow doubt that will be the case.
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#369218 - 09/16/11 02:12 AM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: DTBrown]
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Member
Registered: 08/04/10
Posts: 455
Loc: California
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Honestly, I don't think Orthodox look to the Eastern Catholic churches for input or guidance in the ecumenical movement. As Stuart says, they'd rather be dealing with the boss. And most Eastern Catholic churches sadly agree.
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#369219 - 09/16/11 04:11 AM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: ByzBob]
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Member
Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 2359
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
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I see nothing organic about Pastor Aeternus, nor can I fathom it being dogmatic. I had hope that Rome was coming around to this view, but alas I don't think that will be the end result.
This should be the death knell for the ecumenical effort with the Orthodox (I'm sure they'll continue to meet, but I don't think they will make substantial progress). If the Eastern Catholic Churches are still beholden to formulas that will never be acceptable to the Orthodox then why play this game any longer?
I don't mean to sound too pessimistic here, but I was hoping for a more historical approach on this question than simply regurgitating the peculiar 19th century definition. Hopefully there will be more to it, but I somehow doubt that will be the case. I expected the UGCC catechism to reflect a more Latin position, because the UGCC has always been a rather Latinized Church. In fact, that is the main reason I joined the Melkite Church instead of UGCC. Now if the Melkites issue a catechism that simply regurgitates 19th century Latin ecclesiological theories then I suppose I will have no alternative but to convert to Orthodoxy.
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#369220 - 09/16/11 04:21 AM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: ByzBob]
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Member
Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 2359
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
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Not sure what the ecumenical dialogue has been about. Much ado about nothing I suppose. The dialogue has gotten us to the point of seeing the post-schism councils as not ecumenical in the proper sense of the word, but we are still going to follow their rather lopsided definitions? I think the sole purpose of the ecumenical dialogue is to allow the two sides to get to know each other better. It is pretty clear to me that the Orthodox will never accept the Roman Church back into communion while it (i.e., the Roman Church) continues to assert the false theories of papal supremacy and infallibility.
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#369222 - 09/16/11 07:32 AM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: jjp]
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Member
Registered: 10/19/07
Posts: 220
Loc: Pittsburgh
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Honestly, I don't think Orthodox look to the Eastern Catholic churches for input or guidance in the ecumenical movement. As Stuart says, they'd rather be dealing with the boss. And most Eastern Catholic churches sadly agree. Perhaps not, I'm not suggesting that they do look to us for guidance, but this should serve as a litmus test about where things stand. Another indicator might be the retention of the filioque in the new Roman Missal, even though the recommendation was that it should be removed.
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#369248 - 09/17/11 09:00 AM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: DTBrown]
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Member
Registered: 04/13/11
Posts: 52
Loc: Pennsylvania
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Would someone be kind enough to provide a clear and simple definition of the fuss with the filoque? If there is already an archived topic on this matter in the forum, and therein is such an explanation, please point me in that direction. Sorry for the tangential intrusion into the present discussion.
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#369250 - 09/17/11 09:49 AM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: jjp]
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Member
Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 1090
Loc: Texas/USA
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As far as I can tell, the Orthodox Churches would like us Greek Catholics to shut up and disappear, or, in borg-like manner, be "assimilated" into the Orthodox Church.
Like THAT'S gonna happen...
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#369263 - 09/17/11 07:06 PM
Re: New UGCC Catechism Reaffirms Papal Infallibility?
[Re: sielos ilgesys]
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Member
Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 347
Loc: Chicago
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As far as I can tell, the Orthodox Churches would like us Greek Catholics to shut up and disappear, or, in borg-like manner, be "assimilated" into the Orthodox Church. And the Latinizers, what do they want you to do?
Like THAT'S gonna happen...
You have heard of the OCA and ACROD, no?
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