The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Annapolis Melkites, Daniel Hoseiny, PaulV, ungvar1900, Donna Zoll
5,993 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 333 guests, and 42 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,393
Posts416,749
Members5,993
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 20 1 2 3 19 20
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
DTBrown Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Just got this rough translation submitted from a friend from Ukraine for the key paragraph and footnote from the new UGCC Catechism (page 102) discussing the primacy of the pope. First is the paragraph (number 291) followed by the footnote (number 245):

"291. Each local congregation in administering the Eucharist by its bishop and through community of faith comes into communion with the other local congregations. Local congregations being in communion form the Local Church headed by a primate – a bishop, archbishop, metropolitan or patriarch. The first among the local Churches is the Roman Church, since it has the Pope of Rome – a successor of Apostle Peter – as its primate. He is the teacher and the rule of the apostolic faith, to whom the Lord gives a gift of infallibility in the matters of faith and morals. Just as apostle Paul expressed a love to Christ that was bigger than that of the others and received a commission from Christ to tend his flock (cf. Jn 21:15-18), so the Roman Peter’s Chair “presides in love”244 and holds primacy among the local churches245. This primacy is effected through Peter’s ministry of the Roman bishops, which our Church confesses in the title “The Most Holy Universal Hierarch”.

"245. VATICAN II, Dogmatic Constitution about the Church Lumen Gentium, 13, see also i.d. 18: "So that the episcopate itself would be kept in unity and indivisibility, put Saint Peter over the other apostles and established in him a continuous and visible origin and foundation for the unity of faith and communion (cf. Vatican I, Dogmatic Constitution Pastor Aeternus, (18.07.1870): Denz. 1821 (3050 w.). And this teaching about establishment, continuity, power and sense of the sacred primacy of the Roman Hierarch and about his infallible teaching is again given by the Sacred Council to all believers for their steadfast believing.”

If other members have a copy of the Ukrainian edition (the English version isn't due out until late next year), could they confirm if this is a correct understanding of the text?

Last edited by DTBrown; 09/14/11 02:37 PM.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 450
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 450
Quote
He is the teacher and the rule of the apostolic faith, to whom the Lord gives a gift of infallibility in the matters of faith and morals.

Well, that should upset a lot of people.

However, I'm sure it will be nuanced. Assuming the translation is accurate, i think that the wording used, "a gift" instead of "the gift" is the way to nuance it, as the infallibility is given to the whole Church, and the pope merely has that gift, given to the Church, in a particular, but not exclusive, way.

Last edited by danman916; 09/14/11 03:03 PM. Reason: clarify
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 695
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 695

I think it is a very significant step (if not a huge step) in the right direction!

A lot of clergy and members of the UGCC would find this insufficiently ultramontane - insufficient by a very long shot.

I think it is very well balanced, if not quite edgy, given our present reality and certainly pushes many into areas of discomfort.


Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,665
Likes: 7
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,665
Likes: 7
"The first among the local Churches is the Roman Church, since it has the Pope of Rome – a successor of Apostle Peter – as its primate"

-- what? Since when does the primacy of the Pope extend to the entire Sui Iuris Church he is primate of as Bishop of Rome? Why are all the jurisdictional roles of the Pope being blended together?

My understanding is that the Sui Iuris Churches are equal in dignity and honor. No one is first or last among them. Their heads may have positions of honor in a conciliar setting.

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 839
I
Member
Offline
Member
I
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 839
Originally Posted by danman916
Quote
He is the teacher and the rule of the apostolic faith, to whom the Lord gives a gift of infallibility in the matters of faith and morals.

Well, that should upset a lot of people.

However, I'm sure it will be nuanced. Assuming the translation is accurate, i think that the wording used, "a gift" instead of "the gift" is the way to nuance it, as the infallibility is given to the whole Church, and the pope merely has that gift, given to the Church, in a particular, but not exclusive, way.

Ukrainian has no definite nor indefinite articles, hence no "a" nor "the." As worded, it is broadly vague, as are most statements on this issue.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,854
Likes: 8
A
Member
Offline
Member
A
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,854
Likes: 8
I do not doubt the accuracy of the translation, but must say that I feel confirmed in my decision (taken many years ago) not to join the UGCC. I am content being Melkite.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
DTBrown Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Quote
However, I'm sure it will be nuanced. Assuming the translation is accurate, i think that the wording used, "a gift" instead of "the gift" is the way to nuance it, as the infallibility is given to the whole Church, and the pope merely has that gift, given to the Church, in a particular, but not exclusive, way.

Well, I believe that is also the Catholic position. Catholics do not teach that the Pope has the gift of infallibility in an exclusive manner.

If the translation is correct, then the UGCC Catechism is then saying that the faith of Ukrainian Catholics and Roman Catholics on papal infallibility is the same as it cites both Pastor Aeternus and Lumen Gentium for support.

The problem many Orthodox would have with this, however, is that if the Pope's definitions (even in a very restrictive manner) on faith and morals are infallible then they would not be subject to review by an ecumenical council.

Last edited by DTBrown; 09/14/11 09:18 PM.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 699
Likes: 2
J
jjp Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 699
Likes: 2
I am willing to believe the translation is off, especially when dealing with such nuance. Unless the UGCC is taking the stand that the Roman church is now elevated above it and all others in the Catholic communion?

Other UGCC stuff I have read leads me to believe that the catechism will teach a fairly "Roman" understanding of the Catholic faith, though, and I can see that in the translation provided.

Also I don't know if it is a translation error or transcription, but I believe Peter should be referenced in Jn 21: 15-18, not Paul.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
DTBrown Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Quote
Also I don't know if it is a translation error or transcription, but I believe Peter should be referenced in Jn 21: 15-18, not Paul.

Yes, I'm sure you're right. Looking at the text, it says "Petro," so I'm sure Peter was meant instead of Paul.

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 147
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 147
I didn't really expect the Ukrainian Church to radically break with Rome on the matter of infallibility... but the idea that our church is somehow "lesser" then Rome's just because of the historical accident that Peter died in Rome and not among the Scythians or on the Crimea is absurd. Our Church is equal in dignity to Rome's and I hope that this is just a poor translation of the Catechism..... If not, then I might not acquire the catechism or just take that page out wink.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
DTBrown Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Quote
I hope that this is just a poor translation of the Catechism

My Ukrainian is non-existent so I can't vouch for the translation. That is why I asked for clarification from here. The Catechism has excellent appendices and I could quickly see that Pastor Aeternus was cited so that's how I found the paragraph in question.

Also in the index are citations from Councils on page 300. I can't tell if they are described as Ecumenical Councils or just Councils. Cited are:

I Nicea (325) Number of page references: 1

I Constantinople (381) Page references: 4

Ephesus (431) Page references: 1

Chalcedon (451) Page references: 2

II Nicea (787) Page references: 1

Florence (1439-1445) Page references: 4

Vatican I (1869-1870) Page references: 1

Vatican II (1962-1965) Page references: 37

I can make out some of the authors cited. It looks like there are 31 references to writings of Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky.


Last edited by DTBrown; 09/15/11 02:30 AM.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
DTBrown Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Clarification: I was able to find a way to translate the heading for the Councils on page 300. If I'm correct, these all are listed as Ecumenical Councils.

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 106
C
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 106
Can anyone provide text or a scan of the original Ukrainian?

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 699
Likes: 2
J
jjp Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 699
Likes: 2
The "Catholic Faith Guide" for the Ukrainian Catholic Church by Fr Anthony Holowaychuk (of blessed memory), printed in 1990 by the Basilian Press, also describes all of the Roman councils as ecumenical. My Ruthenian priest gave it to me when I was trying to learn more about the Ruthenian Church, with the logic that the two churches are very similar.

That book also attested to the Immaculate Conception as understood in the Roman Church, etc etc. It wouldn't surprise me if the UGCC catechism followed suit in these areas, I expect it will.

I am thankful to have gained access to other less Rome-centric sources of information since, although it was a well-written book.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
DTBrown Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,968
Quote
That book also attested to the Immaculate Conception as understood in the Roman Church, etc etc. It wouldn't surprise me if the UGCC catechism followed suit in these areas, I expect it will.

Paragraph 311 (page 108) of the new UGCC Catechism, translated from Ukrainian by a friend in Ukraine:

"The Church universally confesses that Mary, the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ, is the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin, and venerates her in the festivals of the liturgical year. In the festivals dedicated to the Theotokos the Church prayerfully commemorates the salvific events from Theotokos's life: Conception by St. Anna 274, Christmas, Introduction to the Temple, Annunciation, Presentation and Dormition, seeing in her an example for our growing in holiness."

Footnote 274

"The Pope of Rome Pius IX by his bull Ineffabilis Deus (December 8, 1854) proclaimed the dogma on the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary: "The Most Holy Virgin Mary from the moment of Her very conception by a special blessing and privilege from the Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was protected against any spot of the original guilt" (DS 2803; also CCC 491)."

I'm assuming, however, that the UGCC Catechism presents the idea of Original Sin in a similar way to the CCC.

Last edited by DTBrown; 09/15/11 11:30 PM.
Page 1 of 20 1 2 3 19 20

Moderated by  Irish Melkite 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2023). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5