http://www.aoiusa.org/blog/2011/11/metro...s-in-the-lurch/

Alexandr

Russia is welcome to intervene. I mean, Egypt used to be one of their best customers.

Metropolitan Hilarion's point is well-taken. And, as he is not Russia, the failure of Russia to act should not be laid on him nor should his words be dismissed because he didn't include it in those nations to whom he addressed his thoughts.

While I don't think that there is any driving desire on the part of the Western powers to becoming physically engaged in another confrontation in that part of the world, there are measures - including economic sanctions and the persuasiveness of backroom discussions - that can be applied in an effort to end the oppressive measures being exerted against Coptic Christians.

Prayers for our Coptic brethren.

Many years,

Neil

I think the real problem is that in the West, there are two growing tendencies: one is to look negatively towards Christianity, while the other is to look favorably towards Islam. The reasons for the latter tendency aren't clear to me, but the reality certainly is, and the two factors together are working to make the average American less willing to get involved in any kind of Christians-vs.-Muslims type of conflict.

Needless to say, if the people don't support the idea, the Government surely won't.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

I'm puzzled why any Christian, in either the West or the East (or, for that matter, in the North or the South) would ever regard Islam favourably.

What's there to like about it?

I also find the present attitude bewildering.


Nothing.

It's better than Hinduism, but that's all I can muster in its defense. Mohammed, Joseph Smith and L. Ron Hubbard must have some interesting conversations, wherever they are.

They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting

Nostra Aetate

I await your take on this. I'm sure it will be cynical and clever.

Utroque, this passage speaks to the condition of individual Muslims (some of whom it may surely be said live a far holier life than some individual Christians) but doesn't really start to address the question posed here about regarding the religion itself favourably.

Well, it's individual Muslims who are doing the poor Copts in in Egypt, not Islam. I fear such as they. I have no fear of Islam, and esteem and honor most of its adherents, and think the Catholic Church is on my side.

The false irenicism espoused at Vatican II is not convincing to me. Islam is a false religion predicated upon an explicit denial of the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Holy Trinity.

To be honest, I think that Hinduism is better than Islam.

Is Judaism then also a false religion? Just asking.

Is the west favourable towards Islam? I've seen scant evidence of that, what with invading Islamic countries on dubious pretexts, messing up popular demands for Islamic governance,strip searching people that look Muslim at airports (including Orthodox Clergy) etc.

We can't seriously 'grade' religions this way. On one hand, of course Islam denies the divinity of Christ and the nature of the Trinity, but then so does Judaism. And it doesn't matter, chronologically, which religion did so first.

I don't like a lot of what I see emerge from Islam either, but seeing as we live in a pluralistic world, it seems best to look for what is good... NOT for the sake of a 'false irenicism', but because there is a fair amount that we share, and upon which a genuine peace can be built.

First of all, it is not possible to seek the Good without seeking God, as only God is Good. This means that Muslims are necessarily seekers of the same think as us. Beyond that, though, it is possible to see in their movement a belief - albeit misconceived - in the Logos. Insofar as Islam is based on the premise that God makes himself known in a word uttered to a prophet and written in a book, and that this word can be pursued by means of the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge, then Islam corresponds with Christianity.

Consider, for example, Caliph Harun al-Rashid, and the House of Wisdom. The Islamic Golden Age saw a flourishing of learning, and something very much akin to what the Christian world embraced when it was not under attack by the Northern hoardes, and then developed in its universities. Indeed, Islamic medicine, mathematics, and even their preservation of Aristotle, eventually served to invigorate the European intellectual enterprise.

If we consider examples such as Grand Ayatollah Yousef Sanei, and Ayatollah Mahmoud Taleghani, we can well see in their work at the very least a tangible, theological expression of charity and regard for human life, not unlike what we ourselves would aspire to.

I think that Lewis' notion of the good Calormene at the end of the Last Battle is a good paradigm not just for individual Muslims, but for Islam itself. Where it seeks love, it seeks Christ without knowing.

It is worth adding:

http://www.thenational.ae/news/worldwide/egypts-brotherhood-pledge-to-defend-christians

After the bombing of the Coptic Church last Christmas, I remember reading in the Church Times (London) an article about the thousands of Muslims who came out on subsequent nights to surround and defend Christians.

This act was to protect them from other Muslims, of course, but it is a part of the story of Islam that tends to get lost.

So what's Russia doing to help Christians in Egypt?

That's no more or less than what Pope Benedict XVI has said many times. Why attack other Christians instead of the real Enemy? Are you a bigot or a Christian?

МОСКВА, 1 янв - РИА Новости. МИД России выступил с осуждением теракта в египетском городе Александрия, где при взрыве в новогоднюю ночь рядом с одной из христианских церквей погиб 21 человек, более 70 были ранены, говорится в заявлении официального представителя МИД.

"В Москве самым решительным образом осуждают эту преступную вылазку экстремистов. Таким кровавым действиям, приводящим к гибели и страданиям невинных людей, направленным на провоцирование межконфессиональной напряженности, нет и не должно быть никакого оправдания", - говорится в заявлении.

Мощный взрыв прогремел в новогоднюю ночь около 00.30 по местному времени (01.30 мск) у церкви Святых в Александрии. В это время прихожане выходили после традиционной новогодней службы из здания церкви и направлялись к парковке. По информации министерства здравоохранения Египта, в результате взрыва погиб 21 человек, 79 получили ранения. По данным российского посольства в Каире, россиян среди пострадавших нет.

"Подтверждаем полную солидарность с руководством и народом Египта в последовательном противодействии всем террористическим проявлениям", - говорится в заявлении.

The Russian Foreign Ministry condemned the attack by issuing the following statement on the attack: "Moscow strongly condemns this criminal attack of extremists. Such bloody acts, resulting in the death and suffering of innocent people and provoking interconfessional strife are unjustifiable"

Yes, Rabbinic Judaism is a false religion, but unlike Islam its followers do revere a true scripture; while on the other hand, the Qur'an is an unholy book that denies the divinity of Christ and the dogma of the Trinity.

Moreover, simply believing that there is only one God is not in itself salvific, after all as scripture says even the demons believe that there is one God. Faith in the Holy Trinity alone is salvific, and it must never be forgotten that Islam is founded upon an explicit denial of the dogma of the Trinity.

Postscript: To be blunt, if I believed that Rabbinic Judaism was the true religion I would be Jewish.

Any religion that rejects the dogma of the Trinity is a false religion. On this issue I agree with St. Gregory of Nyssa who condemned both paganism and Rabbinic Judaism as false in his "Great Catechism."

Certainly we live in a pluralistic society, but that does not mean that Christians should say that what is false (i.e., Islam) is good and true.

Islam is not a way of salvation, and it is the duty of all Christians to preach Christ to those who are in religious darkness.

I do not suggest that we should ever call true what is false. I am saying that it is entirely appropriate that Christians, with the confidence we derive from the truth that is Christ, should look for the good and true even where it may be misappropriated and miscast.

There is greater untruth in death and hatred than there is in misconstruing God's revelation of himself (at least if the misconstrual is not malicious). The origins of Islam aside, the average follower of Islam today can hardly be said to have maliciously misconstrued the Logos, which means that we can - and should - see what actual good they do know and embrace it, even while we witness to our own faith by means of our life and prayer.

Now, I am not trying to be pious here; I just can't think of any other way we can effectively represent the Gospel without falling into conflict.

I think Christ is better served by preaching the Gospel than by trying to find what is true in a false religion like Islam. In fact, Islam is a special case, because unlike most of the so-called great religions of the world it was founded after the incarnation of Christ and its theological tradition is constructed upon an explicit denial of Christ's divinity and the dogma of the Holy Trinity. That being said, I do not see how one can speak of the Logos being in a religion founded in direct opposition to the Logos incarnate, but perhaps you can. I suppose we shall have to agree to disagree when it comes to Islam.

I should say, as a postscript to my previous post, that my views on Islam were formed through real interaction with Muslims while working on my two BA degrees at SF State University. Now initially upon entering the university I espoused the modern irenic view of the Roman Catholic Church, but I discovered quite quickly that that approach merely confirmed Muslims in their false beliefs, and even - interestingly enough - made them think that I was ripe for conversion to Islam. I will never forget when a young Muslim student told me that, "You can't really believe that Christ is God, while simultaneously saying that I believe in and worship the true God without believing in him."

Finally, just for information purposes, I should make it clear that I had a great deal of interaction both with Muslim students and teachers at the school, because my first BA degree was focused upon comparative religion, while my second BA degree involved studying the development of Islamic theology during the first 600 years of the Muslim era. It was the study of the latter in particular that convinced me that Islam is a false and deceptive religion, and that when dealing with Muslims it is important that one focus not upon some abstract notion of truth in that vile religion, but instead center upon Christ, who alone can free a man from error by empowering him to know and worship God through the paschal mystery.

Judaism is most certainly NOT a false religion - it's just incomplete.

A good way to respond to what Metropolitan Hilarion points out is prayer. I submit this text - an adapted version of one by Bl. Pope John Paul. As I pray it I think not only of the Copts and other Christians undergoing persecution under the Islamic yoke, but also of the many suffering people in Mexico, a country for many reasons very dear to me; as well as the various categories of suffering people in our own respective homelands.

"Accept, O Mother of Christ,
this cry laden with the sufferings of
all individual human beings; laden with the sufferings of entire societies.
Help us with the power of the Holy Spirit
to conquer all sin: individual sin
and the "sin of the world."
Let there be revealed once more in the history
of the world the infinite saving power of the Redemption:
the power of merciful love.
May it put a stop to evil.
May it transform consciences.
May your intercession reveal for all
the light of hope."

A man born on a remote island who had never heard of, say, cars, can be said to have an incomplete understanding when you quiz him and he says they don't exist. But a man born in Manhattan who sees cars and hears them and explicitly rejects the existence of their principle characteristics isn't "incomplete". He's wrong.

If you are a Jew, it is not quite so obvious that Jesus was the Messiah as it is to recognize an automobile as an automobile.

No, I guess not. The man of my analogy is Rabbinic Judaism itself, more than any individual Jew. In the case of individuals, I assume goodwill. Most individuals are doing the best they can manage, limited by laziness and stupidity. I certainly am.

A lot of modern Christians find it uncomfortable to apply phrases like "false religion" to modern Judaism because they assume that Judaism of today is exactly the religion practised by the Blessed Virgin before the birth of Christ, as if modern Jews were riding right along with Jesus and St. Peter and just missed their bus stop. Well, it's not the same Judaism. It's a religion founded on the old but in opposition to the true faith.

You grossly oversimplify.

Rather, I simplify in moderation. And, what? you don't?

No, in this case, I think you do a disservice to Judaism, both the Second Temple variety, the rabbinical variety and even the contemporary variety.

Okay, so fill me in. I'm all ears.

That is an interesting point of view, but I do not accept it as legitimate. Just as I do not believe that Arianism or Islam are simply incomplete but are instead in error, so I also hold that Rabbinic Judaism is a false man-made religion. Salvation comes through the faith of Christ alone, and the worship of the Holy Trinity.

As I see it - to put it succinctly - Rabbinic Judaism lacks Christ, and as scripture says, "No one who denies the Son has the Father." (1 John 2:23)

Quite honestly, I would convert to Rabbinic Judaism if I thought it was a valid religion.

The question to ask is this: Is Jesus the Christ?

I believe He is and so I am a Christian. Christ is the sole savior of mankind, for as He said: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me."

But, if you are a serious (i.e., orthodox) Jew, relying on two millennia of Jewish scriptural exegesis, as well as the rabbinical commentaries of the Talmud, you would have trouble coming to that conclusion, in the same way that most of Jesus' Jewish contemporaries did. It was the sincere wish of St. Paul that the Jews would accept Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah, but they did not, not in his lifetime, and not since. But the Church recognizes the validity of the Old Covenant, rejects supersessionism, and believes that the Jews will be reconciled to Christ at the Parousia.