Catholic bishops call for united Easter holiday across churches

November 17, 2011
The Daily Star
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Local-N...x#ixzz1dyfsFtY3

BKIRKI, Lebanon: Catholic bishops in the Orient called Thursday for a common Easter holiday across the Christian churches to boost unity within the religion.

The exact date of Easter changes from year-to-year based on the movement of the moon, and is determined using different calendars by the Eastern Orthodox and Western Christian churches.

The call came at the end of a conference of the Council of Catholic Patriarchs of the Orient which kicked off in Bkirki Monday.

Participants at the conference under Maronite Patriarch Beshara Rai discussed means to implement the recommendations of a Synod convened last year that focused on the situation of Christians in the Levant.

Among the recommendations was “a serious attempt to unite the Easter Holiday for all churches and to find ways of guaranteeing the implementation of this urgent request by all Christians, especially in our Eastern countries, just as is the case in Egypt, Jordan and Palestine.”

The bishops also called on Christians to “hold onto their land and the sacred places in their historical homelands.”

“Have faith in the future,” the bishops pleaded in the wake of the current regional unrest.

They emphasized the need for national dialogue, respect for human rights and national reconciliation.

In an indirect reference to the uprisings in the Arab world, the Synod called for “cooperation with the moderate forces in our societies to broaden national participation.”

Regarding the Israeli-Palestine conflict, the Bishops called for a solution on the basis of comprehensive and just peace.

I'm for it. Go Julian.

I'll take Julian Easter if I can get a Gregorian Christmas.

If we go Julian, Easter will end up in the middle of summer eventually.

Go Gregorian!

Alexis

I know, but it would have broken Fr. Serge's heart to go Gregorian. But mixed calendar work for me: Julian Paschalion, Gregorian for fixed feasts. That almost totally eliminates the possibility of Annunciation falling in Lent.

And there is always the alternative of having the Emperor order an intercalation to bring the Julian calendar back into alignment with the seasons. As I said, I'm available if you need an emperor. Just call--I'll be home reading my copy of de Officionis

Sorry, but it has to be Julian. There can be NO compromise.

How about settings the calendars aside and performing the astronomical calculations prescribed by Nicea?

I don't really understand how not being a few days out of step with the civil calendar entails compromise, so I'm all for Gregorian. As a side effect, going Gregorian seems to have the side-effect of directing some of the crazier people in one's denomination to the Old Calendarists (not saying Old Calendarists are all crazy, but they all seem to be more accommodating of it ;)).

I think Fr David summed it up nicely.

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/312635/Re:%20Common%20Easter%20date?#Post312635

"All this would mean is that the Orthodox would start observing the Latin date of Easter over 99 times out of 100. They would never again observe the traditional Orthodox date. A non-starter, I'm afraid, from the beginning.

If Catholics want a unity of celebration in the date of Easter, I'm afraid the only solution is to "condescend" to their "weaker" brethren and accept the "scientifically inaccurate" Julian Calendar based Orthodox reckoning. Can they humble themselves? The Orthodox, I believe, will not accept a change themselves.

Fr David Straut"


Alexandr

Then again, what about them pesky Greek Catholics who follow the Julian Calendar. Not all Catholics celebrate Pascha on the Gregorian Calendar. Que Dramatic music!

So I don't see why the Latin Church couldn't return to the Julian date for Pascha.

As far as the "Old Calendarists" go, I'd sooner associate with the most rabid Matthewite than with the likes of revisionists such as Fr. Eusebius Stephanou, or Archbishop Iakovos or Patriarchs Meletius IV (Metaxakis} or Athenagoras (Spyrou), just as I'm sure that most Catholics on this board would relate better to the most die hard Feenyite as opposed to those portions of the clergy supporting clown Masses and so forth.

Remember, the crazies will keep you sane.

Alexandr

Also remember, there would be NO Old Calendarists or SSPX'ers if there wasn't something wrong in the first place.

There's no doubt in my mind that the Synod is looking to utilize the Julian date for Pascha, at very least in their historical territories. as most of their jurisdictions already do in Egypt, Palestine, and Jordan.

I'm not sure that they would anticipate it being an easy sell in their diasporal jurisdictions, where they would be out of step with the civil calendars, the majority Latin Catholics, Walmart, Hallmark, and the Easter Bunny. However, they might be braver than I give them credit for.

Many years,

Neil

I'm not sure that that logic holds particularly well. You could use it, for example, to argue for Donatism or Lutheranism, both of which wouldn't have rocked up if "there hadn't been something wrong in the first place."

I find the whole calendar issue a bit weird; isn't Christ everywhere and in all places anyway?

The Clownites trivialize the sacred and the Feenyites misrepresent it: opposite sides of the same counterfeit coin. Neither is acceptable.

Not only is it weird, but I find it all a lot of hubris. Here in Maine it's Friday,November 18, 2011, and we're a little out of step!

All the major Feeneyite groups (three in Still River, MA and one in Richmond, NH) are currently in communion with the Holy See and their local Bishops.

While the Feeneyite position is not the most widely held theological opinion in the Church today (and I don't hold it), the authorities and Rome have not said that is unacceptable to hold it.

Also, their various religious institutions (monasteries and schools) are recognized by various Church officials (the local bishop and/or a Vatican-recognized international religious order) as Catholic institutions (in one way or another).

For more details, see the following document by Peter Vere, a Canon Lawyer, who has written for This Rock and Envoy Magazines as well as apologetic material against the Lefebvre "schism" and also in the book Suprised By Truth #3: http://www.catholicism.org/downloads/Peter_Vere_SBC.pdf

Yes, that was my understanding and I did not mean to imply otherwise. The Clownites also are in communion.

I remember reading of the reconciliation around the time it occurred and the strident remarks of reaffirmation of what I consider an erroneous interpretation of doctrine from the side of the movement; it had me wondering in that the tail seemed to be waging the dog. I presumed Rome was just showing pastoral concern in taking them back so that their own words, in a sense, would not condemn them. In general, for reference and background, I have in mind link .

Why "weird"? Why "hubris"?

Because November 2 was two weeks ago, and people had a hard time catching the right train before time was standardized in the United States on November 18, 1883. I think we all ought to run on the same clock, that's all. But I'm also aware, as we say in Maine, that "You can't get blood out of a turnip!"

Otsheylnik,

I don't think Slavipodvizhnik is arguing for the Old Calendarists or SSPX'ers, only pointing out the fact that there are real reasons why these groups exist. The Donatists and Lutherans didn't emerge from a vacuum, and neither did these groups. All came about because of real abuses that nobody was bothering to address.


Let us not forget that the first priority of the Fathers of I Nicaea was to get all Christians celebrating Pascha on the same day--which method would be used to determine the date was a secondary concern. Given that, plus the fact that the East is clearly so attached to the "Julian" Paschalion, I would contend that any talk about a "common date" for Pascha is necessarily a talk about possibly adopting the Julian Paschalion.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

The (known) world was a smaller and different place at Nicea I, and maths and science were clearly not as advanced. The main point that we can take from Nicea I is that we as Christians should not celebrate Easter "with the Jews". Both methods of calculating the date incorporate this concept, so neither is to be preferred on canonical grounds. Therefore I believe that it becomes a question of which should be preferred on scientific grounds and as relates to the basically international civil calendar.

As Orthodox Christians, we celebrate the Resurrection at every Sunday Liturgy, and recognize that the Resurrection is an event whose effects permeate all places and times, even the gates of Hell, and cannot be constrained by things like calendars. Therefore I think that attachment to a method of calculating a date that is manifestly flawed given our current scientific knowledge serves only to further the perceptions of secularists and westerners that the Orthodox Church is "ossified" and more interested in keeping the letter of the law (even wrongly - the Gregorian calendar doesn't contradict Nicea I - both calculate the vernal equinox as 21 March) than interested in having theology engage with a changing world.

As an addendum, I do know that both Paschal calendars are flawed to varying degrees so perhaps we should just start the whole thing from scratch again and consult a few astronomers - just not those at the Vatican (outrage!).

My understanding has always been that Nicea I wasn't worried about celebrating the Passover of Christ with the Jews but that the Jews at that time had several variant methods in use of calculating Passover.

My preference - as a gesture to the East - is to retain the Julian method of calculating Pascha BUT use the astronomical date of the equinox in Jerusalem rather than the calculated Julian Calendar equinox. But don't expect it to happen anytime soon. Of course, as I recently pointed out elsewhere, I would not surprised to someday find that heaven itself has retained the Old Calendar!

Due to past circumstances where the revised calendar was forcibly instituted upon the faithful, there remains an almost tangible phobia about the calendar issue. The Slavic Churches, especially the Russian and Serbian Churches will not even listen to the subject being discussed, and as these 2 Churches speak for almost 90% of all Orthodox Christians, it would be best to retain the Orthodox Calendar across Chistendom, as we will not hear of change. As a survivor of the Calendar Wars of the 80's here in Pennsylvania, trust me, you don't want to push this issue.

Alexandr

I'm sorry to be late to the party, but I do not understand the devotion to the Julian Calendar many Eastern Catholic and Orthodox have.

I do not mean to offend anybody, but I do not see why all the churches are not following the scientifically correct Gregorian Calendar. Is it due to the fact that it originated from the Latins and that Pope Gregory introduced it? Do Julian-preferring ECs and EOs not want to lose 13 days in the calendar, potentially missing the feast days or memorials celebrated on those days?

I am all for unity, but if the ecumenical councils called for Pascha to be celebrated on the First Sunday after the first full moon after the first day of spring, what are the obstacles in the way of doing that?

God Bless.

As you admit yourself this phobia is more based on emotion than logic. I recognise that logic rarely prevails, so I know I'm flogging a dead horse, but since she's a sensible one I don't mind.

The Traditional Calendar of the Orthodox Church
Observations About its Meaning
by Archpriest Alexander Lebedeff

Father Alexander is a Priest of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad, assigned to the Holy Transfiguration Cathedral in Los Angeles, CA. He received his theological training at Holy Trinity Seminary in Jordanville, NY, and his graduate schooling at Norwich University and Yale University. The following comments by Father Alexander, written in response to specific points raised in defense of the calendar reform, appeared in August of 1996 on the so-called "SCOBA list," an Orthodox computer forum. The original "posting" has been slightly revised for publication here.

I HAVE BEEN deeply interested in the Calendar question for over thirty years. I have yet to hear even one compelling, or even good reason for the introduction of the New Calendar and the resultant sundering of the Church’s liturgical unity. In response to the reasons usually put forth in defense of this reform, I would make the following observations about the actual significance of the Church (Julian or Old) Calendar.
THE ISSUE OF ACCURACY:THE OLD CALENDAR IS SUPPOSED TO BE ASTRONOMICALLY INACCURATE, AND THE NEW CALENDAR FIXES THIS

Observations: All calendars are inherently astronomically inaccurate. The Holy Fathers who established the Church Calendar knew perfectly well that assigning the vernal equinox to a fixed date was astronomically inaccurate. Yet, they went ahead and did this.

The so-called "Revised Julian Calendar" is fundamentally flawed. By maintaining the traditional Paschalion while changing the fixed calendar, the Typicon goes out the window. The Apostles’ Fast is severely shortened, or even ends before it begins in certain years. Over the centuries, according to the "Revised Julian Calendar," the date of Pascha will gradually slip forward into the fixed year, so that Pascha (and all the moveable feasts) will eventually coincide with the Feasts of Sts. Peter and Paul, with the Transfiguration, with the Dormition, and even with the Nativity (the last will happen in about thirty-five thousand years, so you may say, "What’s the big deal?"; but it will occur).

In fact, astronomers cannot use the Gregorian calendar for their calculations, since it is "missing" the ten days that were "skipped" in 1583. Computer programmers, moreover, always make their calculations of the distance between dates by using the "Julian date." Copernicus, among other astronomers, was also adamantly opposed to the Gregorian Calendar reform. Let us incidentally note, in this vein, that the Russian Imperial Academy of Sciences at the beginning of this century found no scientific or astronomical reasons for adopting the Gregorian Calendar. [For more on this see A Scientific Examination of the Orthodox Church Calendar, by Hieromonk Cassian.]

Finally, as I will point out subsequently, astronomical accuracy was absolutely not one of the reasons that the calendar change was introduced by Patriarch Meletios Metaxakis in 1924.
THE ISSUE OF OBEDIENCE: ONE MUST NOT COUNTER THE DECISIONS OF ONE’S ECCLESIASTICAL HIERARCHY

Observations. This is actually a good reason for using the calendar your Bishops say that you should. It is absolutely not in any way a justification, however, for the original change of the Church Calendar.

An amazing issue here is the fact that some jurisdictions have allowed individual parishes actually to vote and choose which calendar they wish to use! Here is a clear example of Hierarchs abrogating their authority to lead and to teach. Lay parishioners have no concept of the liturgical and historical issues surrounding the calendar reform. They are not theologically educated. Yet, they are being asked to make decisions regarding abandoning a calendar that has been part of the Tradition of the Church for sixteen centuries!

Not too long ago, there was an incident that occurred in the U.S. Navy. The captain of one of the larger vessels offered his crew the opportunity to vote on the place where they were to have their week of "shore leave," after a long tour of duty. Because of this, the captain was relieved of his command and demoted—he had abrogated his authority as commander of his vessel and had given this authority to his subordinates. This story comes to mind when one reads that the Moscow Patriarchate has allowed its parishes in Great Britain to choose which calendar they wish to follow, including even the date of Pascha. Do parishioners really have the authority to overturn the decisions of OEcumenical Synods and local Councils? This is democracy run amok, in my opinion.
THE ISSUE OF THE CIVIL CALENDAR: WE LIVE BY THE CIVIL CALENDAR, WHICH TELLS US WHAT DAY OF THE MONTH IT IS, SO WE SHOULD ADJUST OUR LITURGICAL CALENDAR TO BE IN ACCORD WITH IT

Observations. This seems like an awfully weak argument. Certainly, the civil authorities regulate standards of weight and measure, and even time (that is what the atomic clocks are for at the Bureau of Standards). Do we really think that it is necessary, or even permissible, for the civil authorities to regulate when the Holy Church celebrates its Feast Days? Whatever happened to the separation of Church and State? The civil authorities should never be looked to in questions that concern the liturgical life of the Church. The Church has lived and functioned under a broad spectrum of civil authorities, with dozens of calendar systems. Yet, it maintained its own Church Calendar, as it should have. Yes, the Church Calendar was based on a pagan civil calendar. But once that calendar had been adopted by the church, it became something different. It was now the Church Calendar, the mechanism that regulates the "heartbeat" of the liturgical life of the Church in time—that tells us when to fast, when to feast, etc.

At any time, in any place, the civil authorities can arbitrarily change things like the calendar. Does this mean that we have immediately to change the Church Calendar correspondingly? I do not think so. Indeed, the Jews, Moslems, Chinese, and others have maintained their own calendars and pay no attention to the civil calendars of the countries in which they live. There is no reason why the Orthodox should not be able to maintain a Church Calendar, as well.

Also, we never know when the State might introduce some serious change in the civil calendar. Seriously being discussed is the introduction of a calendar consisting of thirteen months of twenty-eight days each, plus a "world day" at the end of the year. This would, of course, ensure that, each year, every date would fall on the same day of the week, simplifying all kinds of financial operations. If such a calendar becomes law, should the Orthodox "join in" and throw out their Church calendar to adopt the new civil one?
SUMMARY

The fact is, there was and there is no compelling reason for the calendar change. None of the reasons usually brought up can serve as justification for the Church abandoning its traditional ecclesiastical calendar and for causing a rift in the liturgical unity of the Church.

So far, for example, no one has come up with an answer as to why it is permissible to ignore the anathemas of the three pan-Orthodox Councils held in the sixteenth century which condemned the Papal Calendar as heretical. Likewise, no one has come up with an answer as to why it is acceptable to use a "Revised Julian Calendar" that severely shortens or even eliminates the ancient Apostles Fast or that will—albeit some time from now—allow Pascha to drift forward through the Church year, until it will eventually coincide with the Nativity. All of this, instead of an extremely well-organized and brilliantly executed traditional Church Calendar, where such aberrations are simply not possible.

The argument, that if one follows the Julian calendar eventually Pascha will occur in the autumn, is also unconvincing. That happens in the Southern hemisphere already. Perhaps we will see an argument, in time, that it is only fair that the seasons be eventually reversed, so that our Orthodox brothersand sisters in South America, Africa, and Australia will be able to celebrate Pascha in the Spring, as well. By the same token, the argument that the existence of different time zones keeps Orthodox from celebrating the Feasts together is specious; the calendar envisions each Feast as a whole day of celebration: a twenty-four hour period from evening to evening, so that even in different time zones, all are conceptually celebrating together.

Finally, for all the discussion of astronomical "accuracy," "obedience to one’s bishops," and "making the calendar an idol," or such inane proclamations as, "there is no time in Heaven," people forget that the reason that the calendar change, with all its painful consequences, was introduced in this century is very well known; and it has nothing to do with any of these issues. Patriarch Meletios Metaxakis of Constantinople, the architect of the calendar reform, was perfectly clear about his reason for this innovation: it was to achieve unity with other Christians.

Let me repeat this again: The reason the calendar reform was introduced was to foster ecumenism. Period.

We must remember that Patriarch Meletios (who had previously been Archbishop of Athens and was later Patriarch of Alexandria—so much for the independence of these autocephalous churches!) was a devoted and self-avowed Freemason and a die-hard renovationist. In 1923, he recognized the renovationist "Living Church" in Russia (which had married bishops!) and its deposition of Patriarch Tikhon. Meletios put together an agenda for a Pan-Orthodox Council that was to include on its agenda not only the acceptance of the Gregorian Calendar, but also the easing of restrictions for fast periods, the shortening of services, permission for clergy to remarry, and many other renovationist ideas. He was an advocate of civil dress for clergy, and most photographs of him show him in a suit and tie with a bowler hat. [These photographs clearly confirm Father Alexander’s allegation about Meletios Metaxakis, who found most of the Holy Traditions of the Orthodox Church, to quote him, "outmoded, old-fashioned, and clear...impediments to Christian unity"—Ed.]

This is the man who imposed the New Calendar on the Church.

Now, Meletios may have admittedly had other motives for his reform, as well. It is not unlikely that the Patriarchate of Constantinople, in the early 1920s, was in danger of annihilation by the newly secularized Turkish government. The Patriarchate had lost the protection of Imperial Russia and thus needed the support of world public opinion, in order to survive. Was the price of this support acceptance of the Western Calendar? Very possibly so. So, the avowed reason for the calendar change was that of coming closer to Roman Catholics and Protestants, not a single one of the reasons cited above. It did not accomplish the goal of union with the heterodox. It did, however, accomplish the goal of causing a bitter and deep division within the Orthodox Church. Indeed, Meletios died a horrible and terrifying death, bemoaning the fact that he had "divided the Church." Is this something we want to support?

There are those who have accused me of making an "emotional" appeal for the preservation and restoration of the traditional Church calendar. But is the situation in which we are now living reasonable, where a non-Orthodox coming up to an Orthodox Christian, say, on the streets of Los Angeles, and asking a simple question—"Is today a fast day?"—cannot get a direct answer? Nor can he get an answer to the question, "What Saint does your Church celebrate today?" An answer like, "Well, uh, you see, uh, some Orthodox are still fasting for the Dormition, while some have already celebrated the Dormition," is not a good or direct answer.

Is it rational to cause schizophrenia in our bishops, who, in visiting different parishes, have to remember which calendar they are on? Is it rational that bishops cannot be spiritually united with their flock—cannot feast with them and fast with them because of the calendar issue? Some even have to celebrate each major Feast Day twice! Not a very good way to follow the Typicon! In one parish, they are fasting and preparing for the Feast; in another, the fast has long passed. Does a bishop who has already celebrated the Nativity, as a case in point, have to go back and fast for two more weeks, in order to serve at an Old Calendarist parish? Or does he start all of his fasts two weeks early, just in case? The whole thing is ludicrous.

The same renovationists who brought us the calendar reform are busy working on new ones. It is a fact that Constantinople is already actively involved in discussions leading to a single date for Pascha for all Christians, and even discussing the possibility of a fixed date. Stay tuned. Maybe we will hear post-factum justifications for this reform as being more "accurate," as well.

The issue of the Church Calendar is painful and divisive In my opinion, this fact alone is an excellent reason why the calendar reform should never have taken place, and especially in a piece-meal fashion. Although I cherish the traditions of the Church and consider the Church Calendar to be one of the most enduring and sanctified among them, I would be less upset, had the decision to revise the Church Calendar been made by all of the Bishops of the Orthodox Church, acting together, with all of the Orthodox Churches participating in the decision and its implementation. This, however, did not occur.

Obviously, there are three possible resolutions to the calendar problem. One, a return by all Orthodox Christians to the sanctified traditional Church Calendar. Two, acceptance by all Orthodox Christians of Pope Gregory’s calendar reform, and the ensuing absurdities regarding the Apostle’s Fast and Paschal drift, as well as the acceptance of the ecumenist goals of Meletios Metaxakis and the disavowal of the decrees of three Church Councils convened to condemn such an eventuality (1583, 1587, 1593). Three, maintenance of the status quo: a continuation of the division of world Orthodoxy into two groups which cannot even celebrate the Great Feasts together.

It is clear to me which of these alternatives is consistent with the teaching of the Holy Councils and Fathers, and which are not. I hope that this is clear for others, as well.

From Orthodox Tradition, Volume XIV, Nos. 2 & 3, pp. 81-85.

Let no man, therefore, imagine that we argue about times, months, and days or suffer privations and persecutions for the sake of full moons and equinoxes (cf. Colossians 2:16 ["Let no man therefore judge you…in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days"]). To us, the Great Indiction, the Julian Calendar, and the Orthodox Paschalion are not one system of measuring time among many others. They are the fruit of the collective genius and work of a number of anonymous champions of science and the Faith, an integral part of the precious heritage of our Universal Church Tradition, to which the Holy Orthodox Church holds firm, proclaiming Her Good Tidings to the world!

Alexandr

I'll respond to that in detail when I get back from vigil, but it's worth noting regarding this phobia that the Moscow Patriarchate Church in Melbourne has used the new calendar since establishment. It hasn't stopped it from being the preferred parish church for new arrivals from Russia or resulted in any great demands for change. Its services are these days mostly In Slavonic.

Canon VII of the Holy Apostles

If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon celebrate the holy day of Easter before the vernal equinox with the Jews, let him be deposed.
Canon I of Antioch

As for all persons who dare to violate the definition of the holy and great Synod convened in Nicaea in the presence of Eusebeia, the consort of the most God-beloved Emperor Constantine, concerning the holy festival of the soterial Pascha, we decree that they be excluded from Communion and be outcasts from the Church if they persist more captiously in objecting to the decisions that have been made as most fitting in regard thereto; and let these things be said with reference to laymen. But if any of the person occupying prominent positions in the Church, such as a Bishop, or a Presbyter, or a Deacon, after the adoption of this definition, should dare to insist upon having his own way, to the perversion of the laity, and to the disturbance of the church, and upon celebrating Pascha along with the Jews, the holy Synod has hence judged that person to be an alien to the Church, on the ground that he has not only become guilty of sin by himself, but has also been the cause of corruption and perversion among the multitude. Accordingly, it not only deposes such persons from the liturgy, but also those who dare to commune with them after their deposition. Moreover, those who have been deposed are to be deprived of the external honor too of which the holy Canon and God's priesthood have partaken.

SIGILLION of the Patriarchal formulation of an encyclical to Orthodox Christians throughout the world not to accept the modernistic Paschalion, or calendar of the innovated Menologion, but to keep what was once for all and well-formulated by the three hundred and eighteen Holy God-bearing Fathers of the First Ecumenical Council, under penalty of penance and anathema.


7) That whoever does not follow the customs of the Church as the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils decreed, and Holy Pascha, and the Menologion with which they did well in making it a law that we should follow it, and wishes to follow the newly-invented Paschalion and the New Menologion of the atheist astronomers of the Pope, and opposes all those things and wishes to overthrow and destroy the dogmas and customs of the Church which have been handed down by our fathers, let him suffer anathema and be put out of the Church of Christ and out of the Congregation of the Faithful.

8) That ye pious and Orthodox Christians remain faithful in what ye have been taught and have been born and brought up in, and when the time calls for it and there be need, that your very blood be shed in order to safeguard the Faith handed down by our Fathers and your confession: and that ye beware of such persons as have been described or referred to in the foregoing paragraphs, in order that our Lord Jesus Christ may help you and at the same time may the prayer of our mediocrity be with all of you: amen.

Done in the year of the God-man 1583 (MDLXXXIII), year of indiction 12, November 20 [O.S.]

Jeremiah of Constantinople
Silvester of Alexandria
Sophronius of Jerusalem

In the presence of the rest of the prelates at the Council."

But then what of the Orthodox Church of Finland? She celebrates Pascha on the Gregorian not the Julian. How does on resolve that within Orthodoxy?

I wish all Greek Catholics in America followed the Julian for Pascha.

I have to say that, all else aside, I find it intriguing that Ned is arguing the opposite side of this issue from Alexandr. Ah well, doesn't take a lot to amuse me on a late Friday night

Many years (Julian or Gregorian, as you choose ),

Neil

The Gregorian Calendar conforms to this just as much as the Julian does. Those who suggest it doesn't don't really understand it.

It was informative for me to read the lengthy post from Proto-presbyter Lebedeff that informed me that I must be backing an ecumenist agenda. I'm happy to wear that, since I'm on an ecumenical forum. party lines have never been my strong point.

You rabid ecumenist you! LOL!!

When this has been discussed in the past, I have tended to find Deacon Tony's (ajk) arguments fairly convincing.

We've been through this a few times before on this forum and the facts have been put forth. Posts such as this are loaded with so much misinformation that it boarders on the sinful. Father Alexander has "BEEN deeply interested in the Calendar question for over thirty years" but seems to have learned nothing; to say more in truth would have me appearing to be uncharitable. And he now passes on his errors to his readers.

As past threads have demonstrated, those arguing for the Julian calendar paschalion have a whole arsenal of evidence showing that it is the proper method, especially in relation to the Gregorian reform. But it turns out that, so uninformed and nonfactual are most of their arguments, that their own arsenal can readily be turned on them. This usually ends in them dismissing as unimportant the very arguments that were at the forefront of their initial observations, or inventing fanciful explanations for what the calendar issue is really about.

So on the authority of “Father Alexander...a Priest of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad” writing here and in a past thread even an Orthodox bishop, we are informed about the “Julian date” to show the accuracy and use of the Julian calendar in the scientific world. Not so. The Julian date is different from ANY calendar (and it’s named after a different Julius than Caesar). Copernicus not only agreed with the need of calendar reform but worked on it; but he died 38 years before the promulgation of the Gregorian calendar. And today Russia, and Greece, are using the Gregorian calendar (as is most if not all the civilized world).

If one wants real fidelity to the prescriptions attributed to Nicaea (all agree on this) regarding a uniform determination for the celebration of Pascha and that coupled with very, very, very good astronomical accuracy (the Earth’s orbit “around” the sun being God’s own calendar) there is only one choice here: the Gregorian calendar.

The Julian calendar is so deficient by those standards – Nicaea and good timekeeping – that its retention should be an embarrassment: it would have us to believe that the sun is by 13 (going on 14) days in a different location in its orbit than from where it really is. The Julian calendar is like a clock that’s running too fast and can’t be reset. I have great sympathy for those, Catholic and Orthodox, who have suffered over calendar reform and how it was carried out. But that doesn’t fix the malfunctioning clock and make it right. The Julian calendar is an anachronism in the most literal sense and, having served its purpose, should now be abandoned for the good of all Christians. To save face, as that appears to be an issue for some, there is an alternative to the Gregorian paschalion, and that is the recommendation of the Aleppo meeting. But even that objectivity is too much to take for some it seems. They then act like the spoiled child that holds his breath to get his way. Yet some say lets just give in to them to keep the peace: the tail wags the dog and ignorance rules.

Lastly, based especially on my direct involvement in past threads on this issue, I believe that those in authority, teachers, clergy, catechists, leaders in general, who have so mislead the faithful into frenzied behavior and intransigent positions, should now open themselves to possessing correct and accurate information, refrain from commenting on matters they haven’t take pains to understand, print retractions with apologies, and seek to do appropriate penance.

I'm for a united Easter based upon the Julian calendar.

Now, take a deep breath.

My breathing is quite steady. If the Catholic Church wants a united Easter no one is stopping it from adopting Orthodox Easter. Debates about the calendar can always continue, but those debates will not bring about a united Easter any time soon.

I believe all Christians, not just Catholics, should want a united celebration of Pascha. I also believe that the prescription of Nicaea can and should be followed -- it is a well-informed and meaningful directive, in science and theology one could not produce a better one. And since we have the ability to implement those directives we should do so; and that today, to be faithful to the directives of Nicaea, in deed and fact, we must use the Gregorian calendar/paschalion or the method outlined at Aleppo or equivalent, and not use the Julian calendar/paschalion because it is now a hinderance and a disservice to what Nicaea wanted to achieve.

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 1 Corinthians 1:27

Irregardless of the scientific accuracy or perceived lack thereof, Can not He who caused the sun to stop for Joshua, order the heavens to comply? Thanks, good deacon, but no thanks. You can quote all the perceived wisdom of man, I choose to remain faithful to that which hath been handed down to me. I put more faith in the typica and the Church Fathers, than in the foolishness of science.

I am sure that the Orthodox would be overjoyed if Catholics began celebrating Easter with them, but arguments about the calendar are not going to accomplish anything any time soon. That said, if we Catholics want a unified Easter celebration it is pretty clear that we have the freedom to adopt the Orthodox practice.

Discussions about the calendar can continue even after the Orthodox date for celebrating Easter is adopted by Catholics.

I do not think that St Paul had the calendar in mind when he wrote those words; to use them to justify intransigence borders on arrogance. I think the humbler thing to do is to accept the calendar that is in use today throughout the world just as the Father of Nicaea used the calendar in use in their world to calculate the day of Pascha. By the way, the foolishness of science fashioned the modern means by which you are communicating.

The Orthodox Churches are free to do what they want on this issue, and so far they (i.e., the majority of them) have chosen to maintain their present practice. Clearly, the Catholic Churches are also free to do what we want on this topic, and if we are serious about a unified date for Easter I say that we should adopt the Orthodox practice. In that way the Christian world would have a unified celebration of Easter immediately, which I think would be a wonderful thing.

Finally, as far as the issue of the calendar is concerned, discussions about that could continue in the coming years and perhaps a mutually agreeable decision among the various Chruches would result at some point in the future.

You speak to me of intransigence and arrogance and that in humility I should accept YOUR calendar because Rome wants a common Easter date? Just who the h#$% is the arrogant one here?

The Julian Calendar stands. You are more than welcome to join us in truth. As Apotheoun has stated quite nicely, our episcopacy has spoken and we remain committed to our Tradition. This is not worth arguing over. If Rome wants a common date, it is up to her to change.

I think that Slavipodvizhnik is the most arrogant of several posters here. Rome has not asked the East to accept an evil, devil-created Roman Catholic Calendar. It has asked the East to consider the possibility of doing exactly what the Church Fathers did at Nicea I. They saw a need for a single date for the celebration of the Resurrection. And they came up with a formula based upon the best scientific calendar of the day (which was the Julian Calendar). There is no evidence that they were declaring the calendar of Julius Caesar to be dogmatic.

I'll give myself the last word on this topic. Let's take a break from the Calendar Question. Only the Lord can lead.