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Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: Slavipodvizhnik] #372451 11/30/11 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
...In Orthodoxy, there are only 2 choices, marriage or monasticism.There is no "single" life without the protection of monastic vows and the support of the monastic brotherhood.
Alas then for Orthodoxy. We are all born into the single state and it is our natural state in that sense. I know a number of perfectly normal people, male and female, who remain in that state as the one proper to them before God. It is too often neglected and seemingly diminished in theology relative to consecrated virginity, (formal) celibacy, consecrated chastity and marriage. It is within the context of that common state that all of us have experienced that we should reflect on what it means to be a eunuch for the kingdom. (Also in that context consider Celibacy for the Kingdom & the Fulfillment of Human Sexuality)

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: DTBrown] #372462 11/30/11 11:49 PM
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You're mistaking continence with celibacy. The former is a condition of the latter, but the latter is a vocation in its own right, a gift not given to all, and not something easy to live even with the support of a community of faith. To live as a true celibate alone is extraordinarily hard, which is why the eremitic life is the rarest and most difficult form of monasticism.

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: StuartK] #372478 12/01/11 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
You're mistaking continence with celibacy. The former is a condition of the latter...
Not so, and quite to the contrary:

cel·i·ba·cy celibacy
noun
1. abstention from sexual relations.
2. abstention by vow from marriage: the celibacy of priests.
3. the state of being unmarried.

con·ti·nence continence
noun
1. self-restraint or abstinence, especially in regard to sexual activity; temperance; moderation.

In particular, I disagree with the concluding statement:
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
There is no "single" life without the protection of monastic vows and the support of the monastic brotherhood.

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: DTBrown] #372480 12/01/11 01:48 PM
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Well, you're just wrong. You're using a dictionary definition to provide cover for what I consider to be a faulty theological understanding of celibacy, and especially of monasticism.

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: StuartK] #372482 12/01/11 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
Well, you're just wrong. You're using a dictionary definition to provide cover for what I consider to be a faulty theological understanding of celibacy, and especially of monasticism.
OK then, you have your dictionary and the rest of the world has theirs.

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: DTBrown] #372492 12/01/11 07:46 PM
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You know perfectly well that words can have one meaning in a general context, and a different one in a specialized or technical context.

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: DTBrown] #372536 12/02/11 07:07 PM
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To wit:

crown·ing
   [krou-ning] Show IPA
adjective
1.
representing a level of surpassing achievement, attainment, etc.; supreme: crowning accomplishment.
2.
forming or providing a crown, top, or summit: a crowning star on a Christmas tree.

I'm pretty sure that's not what happened on my wedding day.

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: DTBrown] #372537 12/02/11 07:32 PM
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3. (Slang): To deliver a stunning blow to the head.

I suspect that may have happened on your wedding day.

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: jjp] #372538 12/02/11 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jjp
To wit:

crown·ing
   [krou-ning] Show IPA
adjective
1.
representing a level of surpassing achievement, attainment, etc.; supreme: crowning accomplishment.
2.
forming or providing a crown, top, or summit: a crowning star on a Christmas tree.

I'm pretty sure that's not what happened on my wedding day.



v. crowned, crown·ing, crowns link
v.tr.
1. To put a crown or garland on the head of.
...
3. To confer honor, dignity, or reward upon.
...

cf. at Prokimenon

And blessing the couple, the priest says:

O Lord, our God, + crown them with glory and honor.

Prokimenon : You have placed crowns of precious stones upon their heads; they have asked life of You, and You have given it to them.

Consider also:

con·text context
noun
1. the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect: You have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context. [emphasis added]





Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: StuartK] #372539 12/02/11 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
3. (Slang): To deliver a stunning blow to the head.

I suspect that may have happened on your wedding day.
Speaking from experience?

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: ajk] #372540 12/02/11 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by StuartK
3. (Slang): To deliver a stunning blow to the head.

I suspect that may have happened on your wedding day.
Speaking from experience?

LOL. I've heard of shotgun weddings, and I've seen a book or pamphlet entitled "Crowned with Glory". Now I think I know that there's a deeper meaning. biggrin

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: DTBrown] #372542 12/02/11 08:12 PM
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It would explain a lot.

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: DTBrown] #372543 12/02/11 08:14 PM
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Back to the topic, I think it's clear that an arbitrary dictionary reference doesn't mean much, and certainly doesn't refute the usage that Stuart was talking about.

"You're mistaking continence with celibacy. The former is a condition of the latter, but the latter is a vocation in its own right, a gift not given to all, and not something easy to live even with the support of a community of faith. To live as a true celibate alone is extraordinarily hard, which is why the eremitic life is the rarest and most difficult form of monasticism."

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: jjp] #372544 12/02/11 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jjp
Back to the topic, I think it's clear that an arbitrary dictionary reference doesn't mean much, and certainly doesn't refute the usage that Stuart was talking about.

"You're mistaking continence with celibacy. The former is a condition of the latter, but the latter is a vocation in its own right, a gift not given to all, and not something easy to live even with the support of a community of faith. To live as a true celibate alone is extraordinarily hard, which is why the eremitic life is the rarest and most difficult form of monasticism."
Fair enough. What then is the source/reference for "the usage that Stuart was talking about"?

Also, what accepted (i.e. not just making up meanings) usage supports:
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Celibacy outside of the context of a supportive monastic community is dangerous...In Orthodoxy, there are only 2 choices, marriage or monasticism. There is no "single" life without the protection of monastic vows and the support of the monastic brotherhood.

Some context; my objection was:

Originally Posted by ajk
Alas then for Orthodoxy. We are all born into the single state and it is our natural state in that sense. I know a number of perfectly normal people, male and female, who remain in that state as the one proper to them before God. It is too often neglected and seemingly diminished in theology relative to consecrated virginity, (formal) celibacy, consecrated chastity and marriage. It is within the context of that common state that all of us have experienced that we should reflect on what it means to be a eunuch for the kingdom. (Also in that context consider Celibacy for the Kingdom & the Fulfillment of Human Sexuality)

And the response and contrary usage (which to me is at best a non sequitur):

Originally Posted by StuartK
You're mistaking continence with celibacy. The former is a condition of the latter, but the latter is a vocation in its own right, a gift not given to all, and not something easy to live even with the support of a community of faith. To live as a true celibate alone is extraordinarily hard, which is why the eremitic life is the rarest and most difficult form of monasticism.





Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: DTBrown] #372545 12/02/11 09:32 PM
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I'm wondering if Slavipodvizhnik's post was speaking only to monastics? That a monastic living a celibate life outside the support of the monastic community is a dangerous thing? That the context of the words simply did not include laymen?

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