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Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: Administrator] #372546 12/02/11 09:56 PM
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JBenedict Offline
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I think he meant that non-consecrated single life is not a vocation per se. This was the traditional Roman Catholic teaching as well. One could be accidentally single, but one couldn't be intentionally single as a vocation without being in some form of (public or at least private) consecrated life.

See for instance this blog post and the article it links to. Not a great or authoritative resource, but just a quick spotlight shined on the debate.

Last edited by JBenedict; 12/02/11 09:56 PM.
Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: JBenedict] #372548 12/02/11 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JBenedict
I think he meant that non-consecrated single life is not a vocation per se. This was the traditional Roman Catholic teaching as well. One could be accidentally single, but one couldn't be intentionally single as a vocation without being in some form of (public or at least private) consecrated life.

See for instance this blog post and the article it links to. Not a great or authoritative resource, but just a quick spotlight shined on the debate.
In pre-VCII Baltimore Catechism days, I'm pretty sure single was one of the states of life. Current Catholic teaching as in the CCC says:

The vocation of lay people

898 "By reason of their special vocation it belongs to the laity to seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and directing them according to God's will.... It pertains to them in a special way so to illuminate and order all temporal things with which they are closely associated that these may always be effected and grow according to Christ and maybe to the glory of the Creator and Redeemer."431

Laicorum vocatio

898 « Laicorum est, ex vocatione propria, res temporales gerendo et secundum Deum ordinando, Regnum Dei quaerere. [...] Ad illos ergo peculiari modo spectat res temporales omnes, quibus arcte coniunguntur, ita illuminare et ordinare, ut secundum Christum iugiter fiant et crescant et sint in laudem Creatoris et Redemptoris ». 438

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: ajk] #372549 12/02/11 11:04 PM
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JBenedict Offline
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Single is definitely a state, but that doesn't make it a vocation. The laity referred to in that CCC passage are married and single laity and "vocation" here is being used in a different sense.

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: JBenedict] #372550 12/02/11 11:26 PM
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ajk Offline
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Originally Posted by JBenedict
Single is definitely a state, but that doesn't make it a vocation. The laity referred to in that CCC passage are married and single laity and "vocation" here is being used in a different sense.
How is that distinction supported by the words? Consider also:

POST-SYNODAL
APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION
CHRISTIFIDELES LAICI
OF
HIS HOLINESS
JOHN PAUL II
ON THE VOCATION AND THE MISSION
OF THE LAY FAITHFUL
IN THE CHURCH AND IN THE WORLD

To Bishops
To Priests and Deacons
To Women and Men Religious
and to All the Lay Faithful

INTRODUCTION

1. THE LAY MEMBERS of Christ's Faithful People (Christifideles Laici), whose "Vocation and Mission in the Church and in the World Twenty Years after the Second Vatican Council" was the topic of the 1987 Synod of Bishops, are those who form that part of the People of God which might be likened to the labourers in the vineyard mentioned in Matthew's Gospel: "For the Kingdom of heaven is like a householder who went out early in the morning to hire labourers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the labourers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard" (Mt 20:1-2).[emphasis added]

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: ajk] #372584 12/03/11 01:50 PM
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JBenedict Offline
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If the question is, "Is the non-consecrated single life a vocation in the Church in the same sense as married life and consecrated single life?" pointing to documents about the "vocation of the laity" doesn't answer that question, because married people are also laity.

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: DTBrown] #372598 12/03/11 04:40 PM
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Technically speaking, even the clergy are the laity.

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: StuartK] #372617 12/04/11 05:23 PM
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Could you explain what you mean when you say

"Technically speaking even the clergy are laity?"

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: DTBrown] #372625 12/04/11 09:41 PM
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Laity is an English word derived from the Greek term Laos tou Theou, or People of God. All those who are baptized belong to the Laos tou Theou, or the laity. When a man is ordained, he does not lose that status, but has clerical status added on. Clericalism in the Church from the Middle Ages onward is responsible for the tendency to see ordained ministers as outside of and apart from the laity, the culmination of which can be seen in the once-common expression, "So-and-so joined the Church", in reference to a man's ordination. Which always led me to wonder, what are the rest of us? Chopped liver?

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: Administrator] #372763 12/07/11 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Administrator
I'm wondering if Slavipodvizhnik's post was speaking only to monastics? That a monastic living a celibate life outside the support of the monastic community is a dangerous thing? That the context of the words simply did not include laymen?


LOL! I had forgotten about this thread. Allow me to rephrase myself. The Church sanctifies 2 lifestyles, either the Sacrament of Marriage or the Sacrament of Tonsure into Monasticism. There is no Sacrament of "singlehood".
Being single is looked upon as preparing either for marriage or monasticism. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out for some people, especially here in the West. Speaking from experience, you would be amazed how difficult it is to find a single Russian Orthodox girl who is fluent in Russian and Church Slavonic, can cook like my Grandmother, looks like Claudia Schiffer and has large......offshore bank accounts! whistle
Being alone in the world is wrought with dangers. In Russia, those men who found themselves without wives were encouraged to join brotherhoods, to help each other avoid sinning. In Jordanville, there still are lay brothers who take no vows, but live and work together. And every visitor to Eastern Europe is familiar with the Church Baba, all in black, with a gnarled cane, ready to wrap the shins of those inattentive to Services! It is only when one achieves a great age, and aged beyond sins of the flesh is the norm lessened.
And if you really look at it, marriage and monasticism are not too different. Single adults are like Poslushniki, novices who are exploring monasticism. Newlyweds are Rassophores. Established spouses are Monks and those rare couples that you read about in the paper, who have been married since the Truman Administration are the Skhimniki, the Great Schemas of the married life. Widows and widowers are the eremitics, steeped in wisdom, on the edge of society, to teach those that would learn.
So both monastics and married people have a Sacrament to protect them, while those of us who are neither, walk around open to attack from the left hand. A dangerous course. In monasticism only those deemed most spiritually mature are allowed to be hermits, and yet, spiritually, that is exactly the position single adults find themselves in, open prey for the fallen ones.

Alexandr

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: DTBrown] #372765 12/07/11 11:23 PM
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Well put.

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: Slavipodvizhnik] #372769 12/08/11 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Being single is looked upon as preparing either for marriage or monasticism. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out for some people, especially here in the West. Speaking from experience, you would be amazed how difficult it is to find a single Russian Orthodox girl who is fluent in Russian and Church Slavonic, can cook like my Grandmother, looks like Claudia Schiffer and has large......offshore bank accounts! whistle

ROFL. I think I've only met a small number of women in my entire lifetime who could read Church Slavonic, let alone be fluent in it. I think I'll call Alexandr's mom and tell her to convince him to lower his demands a bit. Maybe look for a woman open to learning to sing in the choir, and not necessary one who conjugates Slavonic verbs as a romantic endeavor. Or we can call his bishop and ask him to assign a wife. laugh

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: DTBrown] #372770 12/08/11 12:16 AM
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The funny thing is, I CAN find women who can conjugate Slavonic verbs. It's the cooking part that's difficult to find! It's the middle of Lent, so in maintaining that fine ByzCath Forum Tradition of talking of nothing but food during Lent, I will have to say that given my choice right now between Angeline Jolie going on about Az est chelovek i Ti est cheloveku, and golupki, I'd reach for the fork!

Alexandr

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: Slavipodvizhnik] #372771 12/08/11 12:21 AM
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I think I'm getting old......... frown

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: DTBrown] #372772 12/08/11 12:23 AM
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Wal-Mart sells both Mrs. T's "Pieorgies" and Sam's "Cabbage Rolls". Heat and eat. And you can have IC-Lite as a beverage. So what's the difficulty? biggrin

Re: Vatican Website: Orthodox Churches & Priestly Celibacy [Re: Administrator] #372773 12/08/11 12:32 AM
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I would be willing to personally finance a graduate program for a degree in Advanced Babahood. Young women can be taught how to sing in the choir, pinch piroshki (pirohi, golupki or pelmeni), bake baklava and czheregi, clean wax stains from linen sleeves, clean beard hairs from the bathroom sink, prepare the order of Services from the typica, conjugate Slavonic verbs and learn how to be demure. I'm sure husbands and fathers would line up to enroll their wives and daughters!

Mrs T's? Bite your tongue! Mom will come down to Virginia, get you by the short hairs on the back of the neck and teach you to never mention Mrs T's in polite company! You and I are about the same age, so in Mom's eyes, we're both 4, so don't say I didn't warn you! grin

Alexandr

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