I was taught in my VERY limited study of holy icons, that one does not use blue sky and stars. I know that there are Russian icons which are quite realistic in terms of the bodies/faces of those depicted. I've seen this also in Greek Orthodox temples.

I was just on the website for Holy Virgin Cathedral which celebrated the Nativity of Christ today. This Nativity scene on their website I would consider a painting rather than a holy icon. Would there be Russian iconographers who would write icons in this style? Or is this simply a painting of the Nativity of Christ?

Mary Louise,

I'd ultimately defer to the opinions of the several iconographers among our members (Father David, where are you?) and to our Russian brethren, but my personal opinion is that this is a holy picture - but definitely not an icon. Even from the most westernized period of Russian iconography, I've not seen any icons that would compare with this in style.

As well as the general stylistic differences, it lacks many of the elements typically associated with Nativity icons: Saint Joseph off in a lower corner - being tempted by the devil to doubt the Child's Divinity; the midwives, tending to the Babe, symbolizing that He was born in the same way as all humankind; the Magi approaching in the distance; the Tree of Jesse, symbolizing His descent from the of David; and the ox and donkey.

Many years,

Neil

If this is indeed the case, it seems an odd choice for them to put on the home page of the website for the Feast of the Nativity of Christ. Please understand I don't wish to criticize this Cathedral community which is very special to us. I'm rather wishing to understand if maybe there are "cultural" reasons why a modern artistic painting would be chosen over a holy icon in such a situation as this. Without trying to be mind readers, maybe others would know if this is somewhat typical, if one could say such a thing as "typical", for a ROCOR Church.

Neil is correct, it is not an icon. Rather it is a reproduction of late 19th century Christmas cards, similar to this one:




I don't think the case was of trying to misrepresent this as an icon so much as imparting a little flavor of Old Russia which is not usually available here. Remember that San Francisco has a lot of recent Russian emigres who are not necessarily religious by affiliation, and this picture was posted at the schedule of services. Trust me on this one, if any Orthodox jurisdiction is serious about icons, it is ROCOR.

Alexandr

I've seen traditional icons with blue(dark)sky and stars. In fact I've seen entire ceilings done in this motiff.

Thank you, Alexandr. I was looking for a reason for its use instead of an icon. You've given me a helpful explanation. I don't think I implied that they were representing this as an icon. Thus my wonderiong what "'cultural' reasons" there might be for this, which you have supplied.

Indeed many of the recent Russian immigrées grew up in a Russia deprived of Orthodoxy or any form of Christianity. While Holy Virgin Cathedral and my own Russian Greek Catholic parish are in what remains the traditional "Russian neighborhood" in San Francisco, as I mentioned elsewhere in fact most of the large number of Russians coming here and settling in this neighborhood in recent years are Russian Jews. And the neighborhood is very much Chinese now compared with previous decades. So there is every reason to actively promote traditional Russian culture.

I've seen blue skies, no stars, in icons. Was the ceiling motif you describe an icon or simply a blue ceiling with stars? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm trying to improve my knowledge.

The Stroganov Manual (Moscow, 1586) clearly states "фоне золота (божественный свет): Background of gold (Divine light).

Alexandr

I knew that my brother would appear and lend an informed opinion on the topic.



LOL, I came very close to offering a near identical comment.

What you've said, Alexandr, is assuredly the case. My own first reaction was that it most resembled a Christmas card but I couldn't fathom the thinking behind why that would be.

Truth be told, though, it looks to me more akin to 21st century Hallmark than it does to 19th century Russia or anywhere else.

Many years,

Neil

Icons. http://www.holytrinitystore.com/nativity-of-christ-triptych-icon-2265.html

I've seen various parishes with this in the ceiling Icons. SS Peter and Paul Chapel at Antiochian Village has a nice icon screen with this motiff. http://www.antiochian.org/node/18439
http://philzicons.webs.com/aboutphilzimmerman.htm

iconographer Phil Zimmerman comments on this:
http://philzicons.webs.com/apps/blog/show/2816318-color-recipe-for-gold-background-gold-vestment-

One will also sometimes find blue onion domes with stars as well.

Mr Zimmerman admits, with his own words "More often now--especially with contemporary icons--the background color is painted, not gilt. " that he is not following prescribed rules of iconography. So the question up in the air is, are what Mr Zimmerman is creating actually icons or are they nice religious pictures? In my opinion, and the Tradition of the Church will back me on this, is that they are not icons.

I would not look to Antiochian Village as a good example of Orthodox praxis or tradition.

What do blue onion domes have to do with iconography? My home parish has blue domes with gold stars, but I fail to see the connection with iconography.
[img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmbocan/6111497448/in/set-72157626713962851. [/img]

Likewise, the infamous Cathedral of St Basil the Blessed has multicolored domes. Does that mean we can have candy striped icons?
[img]http://citypictures.org/r3510.search.htm[/img]

I am afraid the Antiochian bishops would disagree with you.

And you mean the traditions of the Russian Church, as not every Orthodox Church accepts the rules laid down by the various local Russian councils, nor does the Russian Church always follow its own rules.

Mr. Zimmerman's icons are far more traditional than many found in Russian parishes.

What do blue domes have to do with iconography? Nothing, just pointing out it is a popular motiff.

This picture is just a greeting card without any hint to be an icon. It is a simple internet banner. The sky with stars - let you see a symbolic image of it on a frescoe in Kolomna gate (an old town not far from Moscow)

I think we can find more examples of this iconography.

Stars are to be painted on the Virgin's shoulders and also on the Nativity icons.Blue sky and the stars are the symbol of Maria. If you see blue cupola with golden stars in Russian church let you be sure - in most cases this Church is dedicated to Bogoroditza.

Well, if the website of the official producer of liturgical wares for the Church of Russia is any indication of their opinion on this matter...

http://sofrino.ru

...I'd say blue skies with stars are OK.

I have seen this sort of motif used in icons of the Nativity from different sources. It may be a contemporary innovation, but it is not unknown.

Fr. David

This picture from the Sofrino's website is also just a picture and not an icon. Icon is a special painted holy image, done on a special material (special sorts of wood), with special natural paints, with fast and prayers. And of course according to the ancient byzantine regulations of religious drawing (κανόνας in Greek)
Blue skies with stars are definitely OK, because of the presence of this motive in Byzantine ancient frescoes and mosaics (For example - mosaics in the Mausoleum of Galla Placidia in Ravenna). All the subjects we find in Byzantine art we can definitely discover in the Russian iconography.