I am curious to know if there ever was a period following the Second Vatican Council where Byzantine Catholic parishes began to celebrate Divine Liturgy "facing the people"; the celebrant now faces the altar during the anaphora.

The reason I ask is that the practice has become common among the Maronites and almost all the Oriental Catholic Churches (with the general exception of the Armenians). It was also very common among the Chaldeans until their liturgy was reformed.

The only situation where a Divine Liturgy would have been celebrated "facing the people" is if the liturgy took place at a Roman Catholic parish where it was not possible to "face East". I remember seeing photos of a Byzantine Catholic mission having liturgy at a Carmelite monastery and the altar was set up for the celebrant to face the people.

Why were the Byzantine Catholic Churches successful in resisting this neo-latinization?

I can't answer comprehensively, but I have only pictures of it done, and then it was Armenian Catholic. I think it's either common or the norm with Maronites though?

I will make a note on some trends that can be seen as analogous in the Russian Orthodox Church out of interest.

Since (perhaps the sixties? maybe later) a trend has developed in Moscow (but not in ROCOR) of celebrating the anaphora with the great doors open and emerging to face the people on the soleya for particular parts of it.

There is another trend which has entered ROCOR in Australia at least of "teaching liturgies". In this, the whole liturgy is celebrating in the centre of the "lay" part of the Church, including the clergy communion. Not exactly analogous, but I doubt this would have happened before the latter part of the second half of the twentieth century.

It seems that they celebrate the Divine Liturgy facing the people in the Melkite Cathedral in Venezuela.

http://catedralsanjorge.org.ve/album/displayimage.php?album=14&pos=0

http://catedralsanjorge.org.ve/album/displayimage.php?album=9&pos=8

http://catedralsanjorge.org.ve/album/displayimage.php?album=16&pos=5

http://catedralsanjorge.org.ve/album/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=0

http://catedralsanjorge.org.ve/album/displayimage.php?album=13&pos=2

http://catedralsanjorge.org.ve/album/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=8

Christ is Born!

The choir is in the altar area?


Kolya

don't forget the guitar

Yes, the Maronites were and are very latinized, so they do it facing the people.

As for Greek Catholics I have only one anecdote. The late Fr Michael Felock of St Nicholas Church (Ruthenian) in Lorain, Ohio, did it circa early ’70s, thinking it was what the church wanted. That was stopped early on.

I think they were so successful resisting it, thus becoming a refuge for many Roman Riters during the long winter of novusordism, because Vatican II told them to go back to their own traditions so the modernizers couldn't touch them.

Archbishop Nicholas Elko (Ruthenian, Pittsburgh) wanted to go in that direction but it was too much even for his very latinized priests so Rome actually fired him in ’67 (kicked him upstairs to Rome) after they complained.

I am very confused with the linked galleries. What is going on, parts look like a Maronite liturgy, but with Byzantine Vestments.

The photos are really worrying. The bishop is seen in some of the photos to be wearing a chasu-alb and using his small omophorion as a stole. In one photo we get to see rather a lot of his trousers from a side photo. The Lector is wearing a latin alb and cincture. First communions are in progress. Looks like one place the Melkites will have their work cut out sorting this mess out.

I spend a lot of time on another Forum defending my Greek Catholic brothers and family from spurious attacks by Orthodox who have neither direct experience with Eastern Catholicism or have a 'comic-book' like understanding of what they are and how they worship. I think that I have made a difference with some of them by pointing out that stereotypes are a poor basis for decision making - whether you stereotype Orthodox by the actions of some extreme 'monk wannabe' parish or priest or Greek Catholics by - well -these photos.

To my friends in the BCC, I feel confident in saying this truth - if your parents, grandparents and great-grandparents had not challenged Rome in the early 20th century in America (and I mean ALL of us as few failed to challenge what was taking place - whether they 'stayed' or became Orthodox) these pictures represent what likely would have become of our beloved heritage and rituals.

Stuff like this adds fuel to the anti-Eastern Catholic voices within Orthodoxy and empowers those in the western Church who would like to see the Eastern churches be more western.

I hope that someone sends this off to the proper folks in Rome to see what, if any comment, they may have.

Bishops like Bishop Milan in Transcarpathia have done much to restore the full beauty of our shared Eastern traditions, it is sad to me to see that his efforts are not universal.

We have our own issues in Orthodoxy, so feel free to comment when appropriate. Constructive criticism has its place!

S'Bohom!

david

I don't know about the Armenian CC, but unfortunately that's true for the Maronites. And yes it's the "norm" (although there are a precious few churches which hold to the ad orientem posture). The same seems to be true for the Coptic CC (at least for the most part). The Chaldeans have officially restored ad orientem but there are some obstructionist bishops who continue to insist on the versus populum table. The Syro-Malabars are a mixed bag, with come dioceses (Chanangassery for one) holding to ad orientem, while others (Thrissur, I believe, is one) maintain the versus populum table.

And not to worry: even the Melkites are neither exempt nor immune. I've seen quite a number of broadcasts of the DL from Lebanon using a versus populum table.

Disheartening to say the least.

At least the Syro-Malankarese haven't latinised this far, although the push, it seems is inevitable?

Why would anyone even come up with this horrible mess as an option? If a protestant church were doing it, we'd be up surprised. When Catholic and Orthodox (e.g. Antiochian W. Riters in Philippines) do it is more than surprise, I suspect a lack of education, or willful cooperation with heresy/schism.

I can't comment on the currency of this regrettable practice among Maronite, Oriental, and Greek Catholics, but I will note that, for reasons that defy human understanding, the Patriarch of Romania apparently serves versus populum for large outdoor Liturgies. Here is videographic evidence:

http://video.crestinortodox.ro/txENLbQyHvr/Liturghia_de_Sfantul_Dimitrie_cel_Nou.html

I understand from acquaintances in Romania that this was not a one time occurrence.

Esteban

Not sure how I missed this thread for the past 10 days - but, on seeing it, I guess that I wish I still had done so.

I was hoping to find that the photos from Venezuela were not of the Melkites, but that is, indeed, our Cathedral and the hierarch is, indeed, Bishop Georges Kahhalé (Zouhaïraty), BAO, Apostolic Exarch of Venezuela of the Melkites.

It's not the first time that Bishop Georges has been referenced in a somewhat controversial light. Back about 5 or 6 years ago, he attended one of the TLIG (True Life In God - the notorious Vassula Ryden's ministry or whatever one chooses to term it) ecumenical events and was quoted as speaking favorably on her 'work'.

Prayers for my Melkite brethren in Venezuela.

Many years,

Neil

If that's the situation in Venezuela, I can give you a hint of what's the situation in some parts of Romania, where some greek-catholic priests are very latinized:

just a hint: http://www.reginapacis.ro/index.php?opti...=45&lang=en

Keep in mind that the church is not roman-catholic, but belong to the byzantine catholic community.

It's a lovely church - for a Latin church ...

I have to admit that, while I've been aware, for quite some time, of latinization among the Romanians in their homeland, this series of photos left me near speechless.

Many years,

Neil