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#374473 - 01/19/12 01:11 PM
Oikonomia
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Junior Member
Registered: 01/07/12
Posts: 23
Loc: New York
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Priest bans Downs boy 7 taking Holy CommunionHow would this have differed had the child been born into a Byzantine or Oriental Catholic home ?
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#374484 - 01/19/12 04:46 PM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Member
Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 110
Loc: New York, NY
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The Catholic Herald article has a key bit of info that's not in the Daily Mail article: Mrs Ellarby does not attend Mass every week but she said: “I am from a strong Catholic background and I went to Mass every Sunday as a child. I do go often but not as often as I could because I have Denum and a younger child too.”
In a statement, a diocese spokesman said: “Often Baptism is celebrated for babies in order to bring them into the life of the Church but they only proceed to the Sacrament of First Communion when they take part in the Church’s life and understand the Church’s faith in regard to these Sacraments. Denum’s family has not participated in the regular life of the Church or in the preparation preceding First Communion.
“We hope that this will change as Denum grows and we are working with him and his family to help him achieve this.”
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#374491 - 01/19/12 07:20 PM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Member
Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 351
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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There was a story recently about a disabled child denied the Eucharist because he would spit It out. This may or may not be that story. I'm not sure. What I am sure of though is that I don't trust to tell the whole story either the secular press or an offended parent who only comes to Mass now and then.
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#374495 - 01/19/12 07:46 PM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: JDC]
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Junior Member
Registered: 01/07/12
Posts: 23
Loc: New York
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There was a story recently about a disabled child denied the Eucharist because he would spit It out. This may or may not be that story. I'm not sure. What I am sure of though is that I don't trust to tell the whole story either the secular press or an offended parent who only comes to Mass now and then. Well I thought that perhaps that may have been the Priest's justification for it being so (That the mother only occasionally attends Mass with her son.), but I also read that portion in context. Namely that her son's condition does not permit for him to attend Mass for more than an hour. I would imagine tending to his care would be a full time job for his mother while he is young. As he gets older, I would imagine it would get easier. However, what I find curious is that had he been born in The East, and received since birth, I would assume this wouldn't have been an obstacle, no ? He would have just continued receiving as he would not be personally culpable of any grievous sins that would bar him from receiving. I thought that perhaps the same might apply here as well. I also came to think of St.Joseph Cupertino in light of this child's condition. Mind you, I'm not disputing The Church's authority to ban person's from receiving The Eucharist, but I wonder if perhaps given the circumstances if oikonomia is in order. After all, this isn't a case of a child who doesn't want to learn their catechism, but of one who can't (Well it depends on the severity of his condition.), isn't that enough a justification to make an exception for his case ? Likewise, what other sacraments would he logically be barred from as well ? Penance ? Chrismation ? Extreme Unction ? I can understand Holy Orders, and perhaps Holy Matrimony, but it would appear that he would be barred from the first three as well, no ?
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#374511 - 01/19/12 10:53 PM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6018
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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As Father Robert Taft pointed out in his essay, Liturgy in the Life of the Church, the administration of communion to infants was the unbroken Tradition of the Church of the West and the East for 1200 years. Infant Communion[. . .] Now, in the case of Christian Initiation, modern historical research and historical reflection have shown that the universal primitive tradition of both East and West viewed the liturgical completion of Christian Initiation as one integral rite comprising three moments of baptism, chrismation and Eucharist, and without all three the process is incomplete. In Christian antiquity, to celebrate initiation without Eucharist would have made about as much sense as celebrating half a wedding would today. For this reason, contemporary Western Catholic experts on the liturgy and theology of Christian Initiation have insisted on the necessity of restoring the integrity of this process which broke down in the Middle Ages. I expect that some of the Eastern Catholic clergy, educated in Latin seminaries or at least in Latin categories of a previous epoch, are convinced that the practice of infant communion is not “Catholic”—or at least not as Catholic as the Latin practice of delaying first Communion until children have attained the use of reason. Why they might think this is no mystery. The prevailing Latin thesis was that the use of reason was necessary to receive the Eucharist fruitfully. But if this is so, what could be the point of infant Communion?This problem, too, can be dissipated by a knowledge of the facts. From the beginning of the primitive Church in East and West, the process of Christian Initiation for both children and adults was one inseparable sequence comprising catechumenate, baptism, chrismation (confirmation) and Eucharist. History is unmistakably clear in this matter: every candidate, child or adult, was baptized, confirmed, and given Communion as part of a single initiation rite. This is the universal ancient Catholic Tradition. Anything else is less ancient and has no claim to universality. For centuries, this was also the tradition of the Church of Rome. In 417, Pope Innocent I in a doctrinal letter to the Fathers of the Synod of Milevis, teaches that infant initiation necessarily includes Communion:To preach that infants can be given the rewards of eternal life without the grace of baptism is completely idiotic. For unless they eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, they will not have life in them. [Note: From the text, it is obvious that Innocent I is teaching principally that without baptism infants cannot be saved. But the argument he uses from John 6:53, which refers to the necessity of eucharist for salvation, shows he simply took for granted that communion was an integral part of Christian Initiation for infants]. That this was the actual liturgical practice of Rome can be seen, for example, in the 7th century Ordo romanus XI, and in the 12th century Roman pontifical, which repeats almost verbatim the same rule (I cite from the later text): Concerning infants, care should be taken that they receive no food or be nursed (except in case of urgent need) before receiving the sacrament of Christ’s Body. And afterwards, during the whole of Easter Week, let them come to Mass, and receive Communion every day. Until the 12th century this was the sacramental practice of the Roman Church and the doctrinal teaching of Latin theologians. Christ Himself said in John 6:53 that it was necessary for eternal life to receive his Body and Blood—“Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you”—and the medieval Latin theologians applied this to everyone without exception, infants included. The practice began to be called into question in the 12th century not because of any argument about the need to have attained the “age of reason” ( aetus discretionis) to communicate. Rather, the fear of profanation of the Host if the child could not swallow it led to giving the Precious Blood only. And then the forbidding of the chalice to the laity in the West led automatically to the disappearance of infant Communion, too. This was not the result of any pastoral or theological reasoning. When the Fourth Lateran Council (1215) ordered yearly confession and Communion for those who have reached the “age of reason” ( annos discretionis), it was not affirming this age as a requirement for reception of the Eucharist. Even the 1910 decree Quam singulari issued under Pius X mentions the age of reason not as required before Communion, but as the age when the obligation of satisfying the precept begins. Nevertheless, the notion eventually took hold that Communion could not be received until the age of reason, even though infant Communion in the Latin rite continued in some parts of the West until the 16th century. Though the Fathers of Trent (Session XXI,4) denied the necessity of infant Communion, they refused to agree with those who said it was useless and inefficacious—realizing undoubtedly that the exact same arguments used against infant Communion could also be used against infant baptism, because for over ten centuries in the West, the same theology was used to justify both! For the Byzantine rite, on December 23, 1534, Paul III explicitly confirmed the Italo-Albanian custom of administering Communion to infants. So the plain facts of history show that for 1200 years the universal practice of the entire Church of East and West was to communicate infants. Hence, to advance doctrinal arguments against infant Communion is to assert that the sacramental teaching and practice of the Roman Church was in error for 1200 years. Infant Communion was not only permitted in the Roman Church, at one time the supreme magisterium taught that it was necessary for salvation. In the Latin Church the practice was not suppressed by any doctrinal or pastoral decision, but simply died out. Only later, in the 13th century, was the ‘age of reason’ theory advanced to support the innovation of baptizing infants without also giving them Communion. So the “age of reason” requirement for Communion is a medieval Western pastoral innovation, not a doctrinal argument. And the true ancient tradition of the whole Catholic Church is to give Communion to infants. Present Latin usage is a medieval innovation. The real issue, of course, is not infant Communion, but the universal tradition of the integrity of Christian Initiation, which the West abandoned only in the 12th century. The traditional order of initiation (baptism, chrismation, communion) was maintained until Quam singulari in 1910, when in some countries first Communion began to be given before confirmation. But the Holy See has in the official praenotando of the new Roman Rite of Christian Initiation promulgated May 15, 1969, reaffirmed the traditional order and interrelationship of these rites: 1. Through the sacraments of Christian initiation, men and women are freed from the power of darkness. With Christ, they die, are buried and rise again. They receive the Spirit of adoption which makes them God’s sons and daughters and with the entire people of God, they celebrate the memorial of the Lord’s death and resurrection. 2. Through baptism, men and women are incorporated into Christ. They are formed into God’s people, and they obtain forgiveness for all their sins. They are raised from their natural human condition to the dignity of adopted children. They become a new creation through water and the Holy Spirit. Hence they are called, and are indeed the children of God. Signed with the gift of the Spirit in confirmation, Christians more perfectly become the image of their Lord and are filled with the Holy Spirit. They bear witness to him before all the world, and work eagerly for the building up of the Body of Christ. Finally, they come to the table of the Eucharist, to eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, so that they may have eternal life and shoew forth the unity of God’s people. By offering themselves with Christ, they share in his universal sacrifice: the entire community of the redeemed is offered to God by their high priest. They pray for a greater outpouring of the Holy Spirit so that the whole human race may be brought into the unity of God’s family. Thus the three sacraments of Christian Initiation clearly combine to bring the faithful to full stature of Christ and to enable them to carry out the mission of the entire people of God I the Church and in the world. Thus the Catholic Church has reaffirmed the normative value of the ancient tradition preserved from time immemorial in the East—a renewal received with enthusiasm by all the experts in the field. So both universal early tradition and the present teaching of even the Latin Church show Eastern practice to be not a strange exception that should be abandoned, but the traditional ideal that should be preserved or restored. Leaving this aside for the moment, the priest's refusal to give communion to a mentally retarded boy begs the question of how to deal with adults who either suffer brain damage or dementia: would he deny them communion as well? The Latin Church has been known to give the Eucharist as part of the last rites to people who were comatose, semi-conscious, delirious or otherwise impaired. What makes that different from providing the Eucharist to a boy who otherwise meets all the requirements for reception but is mentally impaired? The priest is guilty of mindless legalism and ignorance of the teachings and Tradition of his own Church. It makes me angry. Earlier today, in another discussion about the foibles of the clergy, someone reminded me that the Lord uses clay vessels for his work. I don't mind the clay vessels, but why must we settle for factory seconds?
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#374513 - 01/19/12 11:25 PM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Member
Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 1269
Loc: PA
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The child most likely would have continued to receive the Eucharist, assuming he showed up in Church and would have approached to receive. Most likely he would also have received the Eucharist in his home, if the parents had made arrangements with the pastor. However, they are members of the Roman Church and their traditions and practices should be respected, just as we expect them to respect ours.
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#374514 - 01/19/12 11:31 PM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Member
Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 75
Loc: Oregon
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Denying Christ to people, because they have a developmental disability should not be respected, it should be condemned.
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#374516 - 01/20/12 12:05 AM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Member
Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 351
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Half-cocked anybody?
Am I the only one wondering how if it is as impossible as the mother says it is for her son to sit through Mass, how he was intending to receive in the first place?
Surely condemnation and thousand-word rants could be saved until after the priest has offered his reasons.
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#374520 - 01/20/12 12:27 AM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Member
Registered: 01/31/09
Posts: 291
Loc: California
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I would imagine there is much more to this story than is presented in the article. The Daily Mail is a tabloid and they are obviously looking for a sensational story to tell. I would like to hear the other side of the story, but we are unlikely to ever know what it is.
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#374521 - 01/20/12 12:46 AM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: JDC]
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Junior Member
Registered: 01/07/12
Posts: 23
Loc: New York
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Half-cocked anybody?
Am I the only one wondering how if it is as impossible as the mother says it is for her son to sit through Mass, how he was intending to receive in the first place?
Surely condemnation and thousand-word rants could be saved until after the priest has offered his reasons. Condemnation was not my intent, rather a discourse between Traditions. After all, we are ONE Church, East, and West. While we may have a distinct praxis, it is okay to engage from within Tradition just how this would be handled if the child were born into a distinct Tradition. As to his not being able to sit through an HOUR of Mass, it is understandable given his age, and condition. However the question becomes, what constitutes meeting one's Sunday obligation (I'm still jurisdictionally Latin, so please pardon the legalism.). I could understand if perhaps the priest delayed it for the child, and offered him catechism where he could learn at his own pace, fine. However this seems to close off ALL possibility of nurturing his spiritual life. If he can't receive First Eucharist, how then is he to partake of Sacramental/Ecclessial life ? I think that is what most are questioning. It isn't solely a matter of First Eucharist, but every other sacrament that he will likely be unable to partake of. Would this child be denied that sanctifying grace as a Catholic ?
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#374529 - 01/20/12 08:06 AM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Member
Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 351
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Condemnation was not my intent, rather a discourse between Traditions. After all, we are ONE Church, East, and West. While we may have a distinct praxis, it is okay to engage from within Tradition just how this would be handled if the child were born into a distinct Tradition.
As to his not being able to sit through an HOUR of Mass, it is understandable given his age, and condition. However the question becomes, what constitutes meeting one's Sunday obligation (I'm still jurisdictionally Latin, so please pardon the legalism.).
I could understand if perhaps the priest delayed it for the child, and offered him catechism where he could learn at his own pace, fine. However this seems to close off ALL possibility of nurturing his spiritual life. If he can't receive First Eucharist, how then is he to partake of Sacramental/Ecclessial life ? I think that is what most are questioning. It isn't solely a matter of First Eucharist, but every other sacrament that he will likely be unable to partake of. Would this child be denied that sanctifying grace as a Catholic ? How would this be handled in an Eastern parish? The child would have received communion at his baptism. Then, given his family's habitual non-attendance, would be gone unless or until he sought matrimony or died. And nobody would question the priest at all, and nobody would assume the secular press and hysterical mother were reporting the facts fairly.
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#374531 - 01/20/12 08:45 AM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: theophan]
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Member
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 427
Loc: Illinois
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I have to ask this priest what second grader--a 7 or 8 year old--fully understands the Church's teaching about what the Eucahrist is about.
I'd even have to ask how many adults really understand the Church's teaching in this area when so many polls show that the bulk do not believe the Holy Gifts are, in fact, the Body and Blood of Christ.
Bob My oldest daughter will be making her first communion this spring. What our pastor told us, at the parent meeting, is that one knows their child is ready to receive holy communion when they know that what they are receiving is not bread and wine, but the body and blood of Jesus. I think that's what is meant by the word, understanding.
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#374532 - 01/20/12 08:50 AM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Member
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 427
Loc: Illinois
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Stuart, I think there is more to it than mindless legalism. First of all, canon law regulates how and when a child may receive first communion. Secondly, I think that the parents are only nominally Catholic comes into play here. As we know, the holy mysteries are not magic. Sometimes it is better to put off receiving a sacrament until a better time (when the family has embraced their faith more fully). There is a balance here, between these things and economy. I really think that we aren't getting the full story. The media often doesn't report everything, only what will put the church in a bad light. Maybe this priest is wholly in the wrong. But I don't know if we can really make that determination based on this news story.
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#374540 - 01/20/12 12:57 PM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Member
Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 6077
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
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Going back to this English child for a minute - I was at a friend's this afternoon who asked me if I had seen the mother and child on the TV this morning - I hadn't.
I think there is more than just the child's mental capacity at stake here - and I'm sorry that the Parish Priest is now going to be the 'bad man' .
Whilst the mother was speaking [ I'm told the whole interview lasted only a few minutes ] the child was waving at the camera men with one hand and then making a 'V' sign at them with the other . When his mother tried to control this he snatched his hand away from her , turned round and 'mooned ' at the cameras.
Maybe this type of behaviour is why the Mother can't take him to Mass and get him to sit through the whole Service .
I fully expect that the Diocese has a programme of education for people with special needs - I wonder if the parents have decided not to involve their child in this .
We don't know - we do not have all the facts and we never will.
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#374541 - 01/20/12 01:03 PM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6018
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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Dear Danman,
I stick with Father Taft on this one. Latin practice is an innovation with no theological foundation, kept in place by post hoc rationalization and the force of inertia. In fact, as Taft pointed out, the current Latin practice (as opposed to its canon law) stands in opposition to 1200 years of the Tradition of the Chruch in the West. There is no such thing as a "minimum age" at which a child may receive the Eucharist. But there is a maximum age at which he falls under the Latin precept that one must receive communion and go to confession at least once a year. Vatican II sought to restore the integrity of the rites of initiation and the practice of the ancient Church. Other than creating RCIA, this is one area in which the Church has utterly failed to follow the directives of the Council.
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#374574 - 01/21/12 03:04 AM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Global Moderator
Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 8894
Loc: Massachusetts
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My brother and friend, John, speaks from the heart about the circumstances that he himself has had to live through and I, for one, can't find any disagreement with what he's said.
As regards the young boy in the UK, I agree with Anhelyna that we've not likely had the full story and likely won't know it ever. As danman has said, the apparent nominal Catholicism of the family may well be a factor in the situation. However, were the Latin Church to revisit the praxis of infant communion, this issue would not be an issue. With that unlikely to happen anytime soon, we'll continue to read stories like this from time to time (we had a similar thread some years ago, I believe) and, at the same time, we'll also see spiritually edifying stories in which a very different pastoral approach was taken.
Though we may be conflicted, even within our own ranks, as to which was the better approach, it's not our battle - we do have our own windmills against which to joust.
Many years,
Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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#374702 - 01/23/12 04:38 PM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Member
Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6018
Loc: Falls Church, VA
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True necessity would be a situation in which baptism in the Byzantine rite would not be possible for an extended period, or when death is a serious possibility, in which case the child could be baptized by a priest of the Latin or any other rite, or even by a deacon or layman, according to the Trinitarian formula. But as soon as possible thereafter, the person should be Chrismated, whether infant or adult.
Usually, when a person already baptized by not confirmed/chrismated is received into a new particular Eastern Catholic (or Orthodox) Church, then Chrismation is performed immediately, or as soon as is practical after the reception is approved.
By the way, if you can't get any satisfaction, fear not--Serbian chant is wonderful.
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#374792 - 01/25/12 01:33 PM
Re: Oikonomia
[Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El]
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Junior Member
Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 10
Loc: California
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Just a brief note. I have a 7-year old daughter with Down Syndrome. She has grown up in two EC parishes, one Ruthenian and the other Russian Greek-Catholic. She has been communing since her baptism as an infant, with no significant problems.
In fact, a few months ago, one Sunday after receiving communion, she whispered to me, totally out of the blue, "I ate some Jesus!!". Now, we have of course taught her that Jesus is there in the Eucharist, but never taught her to speak of it in terms of "eating some Jesus" - she worked that out on her own.
There is no question in my mind that she has the benefited immensely from the grace of the Eucharist, no how matter how little she may understand it. It has often been a point of meditation for me - that compared to the depth of the Mystery, my understanding is really not that much greater than hers.
I of course disagree with the current Latin practice of ex-communicating children, that, as Stuart has pointed out, is a medieval innovation and departure from ancient tradition both East and West.
In the case of the UK boy, it seems that the family is only nominally Catholic. Even given that, I don't see why he should be denied communion, as long as he is physically able to receive. If he has trouble sitting through a one-hour Mass, I think this may have more to do with the fact that he is not accustomed to being in church if they only go a couple times month. My daughter has no problem with a 1 1/2 hour DL. Especially at the Russian parish, which has no pews: she is free to move around, look at icons, sit on the floor and read a book, etc....
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