Mormonism is a cult. It if were directly of the Devil, it would be less goofy.

Some of the "history" to which Mormonism subscribes is false, and proven so by archeology, to say nothing of ordinary common sense.

I say, if the Devil or some other deceptive spirit were behind it, he would have had the good sense not to say there had been elephants and steel chariots in pre-columbian North America.

I consider the whole matter to have been a fraud by a chap who mostly wanted to get a lot of other chaps' wives into his bed.

I have to agree. I think Joseph Smith was a man with a good imagination and a charismatic personality. Mormonism is interesting, though. They have an answer for every imaginable theological question. Nothing is left to mystery at all.

Which prompts me to bring up the following question: Why don't Byzantine Catholics or Orthodox Christians go door-to-door as Mormons do?

I dare say there is no such thing as a totally false religion. Even stopped clocks are correct twice a day.

But, I have found it very insulting, infuriating and degrading when people have labeled my Church as a cult. Consequently, I do not want to insult the Mormons by using that word to describe their sincere and honestly-held religious beliefs. I respect their sincerity and the freedom of anyone to become or remain a member of the LDS Church. I admire them for the social good works they do; for their promotion of alcohol and tobacco-free lifestyles, for their zeal in promoting their beliefs (although I lament some of those beliefs) and for their concerns about pro-life, pro-family causes (although their doctrinal motivations are quite different to ours).

Still, I am highly critical of the LDS Church & it's unique teachings. They are unique precisely in that they deviate considerably from main-line Christianity; particularly from Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

The N.T. speaks of not only "THE" anti-christ but of many. And so if there are multiple manifestations of the anti-christ, so too are there anti-scriptures (Koran, Bk. of Mormon, etc.) and anti-sacraments (abortion is the anti-sacrament of Baptism, for example).

While we none of us can know for sure how Mormonism originated, we can know for sure that it didn't originate with the One True God, the Most Blessed Trinity. Mormonism denies the belief in that particular God we Catholics and Orthodox worship. If an angel was involved in the alleged visions of Joseph Smith, my personal opinion is that it was a fallen angel, in other words, a demon disguised as a good angel.

Check out Galatians 1: 6-9. It's a good place to start when we contemplate Mormon doctrines.

You admire them for promoting an alcohol-free and tobacco-free lifestyle? Really? I don't. That's got to be the worst of Mormonism. I mean, if they want to go around wearing secret holy underpants and marrying three and four women half their ages, I can understand it. I don't agree with it all, but it is a human kind of thing with which at least I can identify. But this no tobacco or alcohol thing is just right off the rails. It's inhuman.

But yes, every one I have known has been upstanding and impressive in his moral example.

Mormonism is a fully self-contained belief system that is internally logical but collapses completely when tested again any form of external truth. That our God is a man who lived a correct life on a planet that clearly does not exist should be enough to raise questions to any rational person. That there is clear proof that significant portions of the Book of Mormon were copied from other popular books of the day must raise some kinds of questions. And as someone mentioned the beliefs about the origin of native Americans which clearly contradict archeology and genetics as well as common sense have to be a serious obstacle to any rational person.

On the other hand one has to believe these are people who have great faith. It would have to take an immense faith to continue to believe what Mormons believe in the face of such obvious contradictory evidence. But as a friend of mine who was a Mormon Bishop told me when I asked about this, You either believe all of it or you believe none of it. We often hear similar comments about fundamentalist bible literalists. That if they question one word of the bible then the whole bible becomes false.

I never question the sincerity or the faith of Mormons. I don't question their commitment to family values or high moral standards. None of that prevents me from viewing their theology and historical interpretations as being utterly absurd and completely alien to the truth. I don't believe for a minute that there was any angel named Moroni. I firmly believe that Mormonism is a completely human fabrication begun by a delusional young man and refined by layer upon layer of "revelations" created by the church elite to address every new situation.

A good place to start trying to understand the cauldron that Mormonism came out of is to read about the so-called Burned Over District in New York in the middle of the 1800's. Mormonism was not the only bizarre movement to come out of there it just was the most successful one.

Jim,

Very true. And if one is at all familiar with the Burned Over District, it's easy to understand how anything that made life a bit more 'interesting' could gain a foothold. Even today, a century and a half plus later, much of it is a remarkably desolate and foreboding area devoid of almost anything that smacks of social living.

Having spent four years driving through large pieces of it while chauffering my eldest to and from college, I was constantly struck by the isolation that still pervades in the miniscule towns along the upper border of NY State. Not at all hard to see why those who embraced Mormonism, the Millerites, the Fox Sisters, and the utopian communities that flourished there, did so. What else did they have to do? While it might have been fertile ground for mainstream religious bodies as well, I suspect that it was generally so poorly populated as to not seem worth the investment of time and resources.

Many years,

Neil

Neil

I must say I prefer Saranac Lake. Maybe beauty is the anecdote to boredom there.

Jim

What qualifies a religious group as a cult?
Is there a set of common parameters that people agree upon.
There are fundamentalists that call Catholicism a cult. This mostly comes from Seventh Day Adventists and others on the fringe.
What's in a name?

For example, they deny the Trinity. Anathema
Their early disciples taught that each of the saved would be become like gods and given a planet (yes, a planet) to rule over. Alien
They baptize the dead through proxy. Heresy

Whether Mormonism is a cult or a religion is a matter of semantics: They are not Christian.

Good point. When I try to explain that the fact that we Orthodox and the Catholic church do not regard Mormons as 'Christians' I either get strange looks or dumb arguments.

For example, Chris Matthews on MSNBC, a man well educated by the Christian Brothers and the Jesuits I believe (LaSalle HS in Philly and Holy Cross College in Worcester,MA), really disparages those evangelical ministers who are making an issue out of that. Yet, as a schooled Catholic - he ought to know that since the fourth century AD and Nicea you are not Christian if you deny the Incarantion as defined by the Fathers and deny the Trinity.

That being said, it doesn't mean Mormons are bad people or that one shouldn't vote for a Mormon on that basis. What is disengenous on their part however is their insistance on being called a Christian denomination.

I think the problem is that the Mormon understanding of the Trinity is fundamentally different from the Christian understanding. I haven't studied the issue well enough to be able to really explain the difference, but I do know that they believe that Jesus (along with Lucifer) is literally the flesh and blood son of the Father. Although they use the term Trinity, they prefer the term Godhead.

I do not believe that Mormons are trying to reinvent themselves. Their "missionaries" are taught to avoid any discussion of the most outrageous of their beliefs. Any Mormon apologist will be skilled at disguising the unique aspects of Mormon beliefs and make them appear as if they are consistent with orthodox Christianity.

As in the piece you cited, the Mormons believe, according to your cite, in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Case closed right. Wrong.

The Mormon Trinity has three separate persons but each is unique being. The Father created the Son in time. Now what heresy is that?

"Mormons do not agree with mainstream Christians that Jesus is the eternal Word of God or God himself. In Mormon belief, Jesus was a created spirit and "son of God" before being given a physical body, just like all humans. In the Mormon text "Book of Moses," Satan and Jesus contend for the privilege of taking a body of flesh in order to become the redeemer, with Jesus winning the contest. The spirit of Jesus was then given a body through the Virgin Birth to Mary in Bethlehem."

According to Mormons the Holy Spirit is a separate being from the Father, as is Jesus. Their idea is of a Godhead made up of three distinct beings functioning together with a common purpose but not of one substance. What heresy was that one?

So you can see clearly how the strategy of answering only part of the question to hide as much as possible the underlying non-christian nature of their beliefs is very advanced within Mormonism.

If you want to find out more about their beliefs you might look here. http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/beliefs/

I honestly would not take seriously any Mormon document, advertisement or propaganda that is designed for non-Mormons because it will be inherently distorted to hide the true Mormon beliefs.

At the same time,I think there is a reasonable large group of Mormons who are embarrassed by some of their beliefs and have rejected the theology without rejecting the culture. These people honestly believe in a fairly bland form of orthodox protestantism and the distortions tend to much more closely reflect their beliefs than the actual position of the church.

Again, I do not deny Mormons the right to believe what ever they wish. And as people I find them to be upstanding. It is just that the systematic distortion of their odd beliefs to make them palatable to potential recruits is in my opinion indefensible.

I wouldn't let Romney's Mormonism keep me from voting for him if I thought he were the best candidate. But people who think of America as a Christian Nation and who want Christian leaders need to realize that the Mormon faith is not Christian.

One item I left out of my previous post was their belief in the Heavenly Mother -- not the Theotokos, mind you -- the wife of God the Father, who is the Mother of all human spirits.

Ummmmm... No.

Oh my this is a problem ...

I live in Saint George Utah.

It is a wonderful town to live in. Mormons embarrass Catholics Byznatines and Orthodox when in comes to social connectedness, evagelization, peaceful living. We look insensitve at best compared to them.

I like living in the city which is 99% mormon but we are going to move because my Byzantine Catholic son 8 years old is starting to experience the "shunning" ... no one has invited him to a birthday party in his class this year. At school each year they let the student choose the teachers they want (probably closely associated with each "ward" they are in)

As they progress in age - the differences are profound.

We have lived here for 4 years and have very few close friends because we are Catholic. They do not know how to handle me because I am devoutly Byzantine Catholic - and practice my faith openly! There have been several attempts to convert me and my family - all thwarted by our devotion to The True Faith. They know what we are and when you are strong in the Catholic Faith they leave you alone.

One of the most outstanding Latin Catholic Cathedrals is in Salt Lake City and the story is quite amazing - the Mormons helped the Bishop of Salt Lake with his ministry - helped in a big way - I can't remember but they may have donated the land.

Anyway the Cathedral of the Madeleine in SLC is gorgeous and very inspiriring (and I think puts to shame the local Morman Temple)

No need to worry about them converting you and yours as long as you are catechized and strong in The Truth - the True Faith.

And - indeed probably good pickings for evangelization because as mentioned earlier - most (I'd guess 99%) opt for the social connectedness and don't delve much into their own theology - those that do investigate their theology fall away from the faith quite easily or just revert to the convenient social aspects of hanging out at the church which is quite fun - they have lots of dinners, celebrate holidays in a grand fashion (except Christmas - they are baffled by Christmas - in FACT THE BEST WAY TO START TALKING TO THEM ABOUT THEIR FAITH IS TO ASK THEM WHO SETS THEIR CALENDAR FOR EASTER AND CHRISTMAS - AS THEY CELEBRATE THE GREGORIAN CALENDAR OF THE LATIN CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR THOSE HOLIDAY!THEY HAVE NO ANSWER FOR YOU EVEN THE MOST INTELLIGENT MORMON I HAVE EVER MET CAN'T ANSWER THAT QUESTION!) - Jack Mormons is what they are called up here. I would venture to guess that most would peal away if they studied Christianity and really looked into the controversial aspects of both their religion and their theology.

The Virgin Mary - I've been told - was virgin of man but that The god of this universe (ONCE A MORMON MAN) made love to Mary and she conceived the god man they call "heavenly father" or Jeaua" Quite a bizarre look at the Virginity issue.

I also don't believe in their modern day claims of monogamy - as they believe that Monogamy is good on Earth but that Polygamy will be practiced in Heaven - much like the Islamic virgins in heaven thing. It blows away their claims that the Fundamentalist LDS church is not practicing the faith they believe in - in fact they are practicing the faith that was given them by Joseph Smith!

A very bizarre religion with some great people in it with really awesome christian acts and kindness and again wonderful acts of evangelization and social networking and helping their own.

I'm moving - even though Saint George has the lowest crime rate of any city I've ever seen in the U.S. I believe there wasn't a murder in Saint George for the first 150 years until the 1990's when an illegal alien mexican killed someone here. I'm not even sure there has been a murder since ... none since I've lived here that I am aware of (4 almost 5 years)

John Haydukovich

To their credit (and this is one of a VERY few thing which I would give to North American amalagmated Arianism/Mohammedism's credit) they did have an advertising campaign for their "Book of Mormon" which they headlined as "There is another Testament of Jesus Christ"---conveniently omitting St. Paul's injuction to the Galatians!

It is truly through the inspiration of the Third Person of the Most Holy Trinity that this Holy Apostle foretold the apostacy of the fallen angel (I will not capitalize) Moroni

John

If you and your family would like to join a growing little BCC community we would love to have you in San Antonio.

Jim

I love San Antonio!

Unfortunately - or perhaps fortunately - my wife and I just had our first Grandchild - in Los Angeles.

My wife has already spent 3 weeks in LA - and there is nothing in this universe which will keep her away from that baby!

I would move to San Anton in a second though ...

Thank you for the invite.

John

One of the most wonderful people I ever met was a devout practitioner of the Mormon Faith. I came to admire her tolerance, acceptance and compassion. If she is what the Mormon Faith produces I can't find fault with that religion at all. By comparison I have known a lifetime of Roman Catholics who could pull the Ho-Ho-Ho right outta Santa Claus!

Honestly, I have to say that when I am at prayer most of the stuff people argue over doesn't really factor into the equation at all.

No real point; just kicking in a couple of cents.....

Best Wishes,

Bruce

They do produce some excellent people.

It is their theology that I question.

Was the woman intelligent? Did she use her God given talent of intelligence to investigage and seek out the Truth?

I know I have (and I'm not that intelligent).

by the way - many sales training programs produce some really nice salespeople (Dale Carnegie etc.)
their missionary efforts mirror or to me look like a sales training excersize - and Mormon men make really excellent salespeople - they set goals of numbers of baptized - and the more they get - the higher the get in heaven.
(this part confuses me because if they pass the test on earth I am unclear how they become gods if positions in heaven are important because it would simply be a position in the heaven of that particular god)

If Mitt Romney makes it to the Republican nomination you will see Mormonism as an issue.

The individual that I met I knew only for a short time while I was at University. She lived in the town with her husband and two children. Any time I was around her I found myself thinking of Proverbs 31---"Who can find a virtuous woman?for her price is far above rubies.....She openeth her mouth with wisdon; and in her tongue is the law of kindness......her children rise up and call her blessed." I honestly think she was the first person to demonstrate what it means to draw people out of the best parts of themselves as I saw her do it often and for her it seemed effortless....almost second-nature. Even as I write this I feel myself smiling. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Is that all there is to say?

An interesting question. It reminds me of one glorious Easter morning. I was running a little late, and just walking out to my car when a Mormon came to my doorstep (yes, on Easter morning). I politely explained that I was running late for services, and that I was a live-long Catholic not likely to change my mind or affiliation. She smiled, handed me her flyer and replied "Well, we are all God's children."

That left an impression on me, as a Christian.

Oddly enough, I just read Cardinal Dolan's speech given to the College of Cardinals on Evangelization (looks like this will be his calling, in addition to battling the HHS mandate and other frolics of our government). Among the memorable quotes:



Personally, as I was taught from an early age, I believe we evangelize best through our witness and example, as seen by others in the conduct our daily lives.

Mormons will not reveal their true theology to you - in fact they purposefully deceive - in order to make you convert.

Ask what Jesus was? A Prophet (surely He was The Ultimate Prophet) . One Person in the Trinity of God?
ask those questions of the Mormon Faith and find out the real answers - not the superficial initial answers.

Yes they are very very nice people.

Is Niceness the only requirement to live and practice the True Faith? Does God want us to be NICE? ONLY NICE?

I guess I'm more skeptical - WHY ARE THEY NICE?

They are also very sincere; but; like other genuine and nice peoples, they are sincerely wrong.

I have only had Jehovah Witnesses come to my door. Just lucky, I guess.

That is such a funny way of putting it! It made me chuckle!

Yeah - among other things, God most certanily wants us to be "nice" if by that is meant kind, empathetic and available to people, particularly those in distress. "Nice" can mean a lot of things. Defining "nice" is like trying to pick up mercury with a fork. You may not be able to define it but boy-o-boy, you sure can tell when it's absent. As it often is in our "true" Churches...

And no, "nice" is not the only thing God wants us to be.

I have had the misfortune of knowing and interacting with people whose profession of both the Catholic and Orthodox Faiths was theologically correct in every way; and they kept the rules and regulations of their respective Churches flawlessly. But they were as mean as vipers with the shingles. Condescending to, and dismissive, of people with less education; less fortitude; less belief.

They drove people away from the Church. They eclipsed Jesus altogether. They spread anger and grieved people, all in the Name of Jesus. What they lacked in joy they made up for in rigourism and hardness of heart. The most important thing was to be right, or correct. Sometimes such folks act as if they never even heard of the Golden Rule, much less observe it. And paradoxically, lotsa atheists and agnostics DO know it and observe it.

So, being "nice" has a certain relative importance. "See how they love one another!" was once the identifying mark of Catholics and Orthodox. Is it any more? Not necessarily. Should it be? Yes; it should be at least one of them.

Thanks for all your thoughts... and try to be nice to someone today. Saint Matthias, pray for us.