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Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Economos Roman V. Russo] #374069
01/10/12 09:28 PM
01/10/12 09:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
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Yehonathan Rafa'El Offline OP
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Yehonathan Rafa'El  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Ot'ets Nastoiatel'
Try Mar Mari Orthodox Church of the East on Buenavista Ave. in Yonkers. Beautiful East Syriac Liturgy. Warmly hospitable people. Welcoming priest and khouriyeh. They admit to the Table of the Lord all the faithful of the Apostolic Churches. I believe you can make a case for Catholics to receive there based on the mutual accommodation between the Assyrian Orthodox and Chaldean Catholics. The Qurbana Raza is served in Syriac but there are bilingual texts available. The priest and faithful are from Iran. Let me know if this works for you.



This is precisely what I was thinking of. Namely assisting at a Church that isn't Catholic, solely for the sake of becoming acquainted with the Tradition on it's own merits, whilst still holding to Catholic teaching. smile

Thank you.

I apparently however do have a local Syriac community, but the address listed for St.George's in Brooklyn seems to be for a house on Google Maps. :-?

But I appreciate your personal recommendation, and will take it into consideration. The only "dilemma" is that as a Roman Catholic, I wouldn't be able to fulfill my Sunday obligation (nor HDOs) within a non Catholic Church. I believe there is a dispensation for Oriental, and Byzantine Catholics though. However, if they do offer weekday Liturgies, then I would have no problem attending, if only to observe and become acquainted with the Tradition smile. Thank you biggrin

Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El] #374253
01/14/12 09:30 AM
01/14/12 09:30 AM
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Posts: 264
upstate NY
Booth Offline
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I'd like to note that, regardless of which Catholic church you attend, the most perfect Israelite that ever lived is in attendance, and you have the opportunity to commune with Him.

Also, the Church is the New Israel. The Israel of Moses's times was not externally perfectly identical to David's. But the Blessed and Glorious Trinity with with both of them, and that's what matters.

Similarly, we can't expect New Israel in Peter's time to look exactly like New Israel in Benedict XVI's, much the less like Old Israel under Hyrcanus, for example.

Last edited by Booth; 01/14/12 09:31 AM.
Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El] #374255
01/14/12 10:32 AM
01/14/12 10:32 AM
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Posts: 6,562
Glasgow, Scotland
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Our Lady's slave Offline
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Originally Posted by Yehonathan Rafa'El


But I appreciate your personal recommendation, and will take it into consideration. The only "dilemma" is that as a Roman Catholic, I wouldn't be able to fulfill my Sunday obligation (nor HDOs) within a non Catholic Church. I believe there is a dispensation for Oriental, and Byzantine Catholics though. However, if they do offer weekday Liturgies, then I would have no problem attending, if only to observe and become acquainted with the Tradition smile. Thank you biggrin


There is no problem/dilemma - you attend the RC Church on Saturday evening for the Vigil Mass - then you have fulfilled your Obligation . This allows you then to attend the Orthodox Church on the Sunday morning .

Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El] #374297
01/15/12 05:23 PM
01/15/12 05:23 PM
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Posts: 392
New York
Anthony Offline
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Is this a Syriac Catholic Qurbono?

Thank you

In Christ,
Anthony

Quote:

Shouldn't it reflect something akin to this (Even if slightly Latinized.), given that they share a common Ritual origin ? :

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9EA7AC2A7C99B55C


Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Booth] #374353
01/16/12 06:42 PM
01/16/12 06:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
New York
Y
Yehonathan Rafa'El Offline OP
Junior Member
Yehonathan Rafa'El  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
New York
Originally Posted by Booth
I'd like to note that, regardless of which Catholic church you attend, the most perfect Israelite that ever lived is in attendance, and you have the opportunity to commune with Him.

Also, the Church is the New Israel. The Israel of Moses's times was not externally perfectly identical to David's. But the Blessed and Glorious Trinity with with both of them, and that's what matters.

Similarly, we can't expect New Israel in Peter's time to look exactly like New Israel in Benedict XVI's, much the less like Old Israel under Hyrcanus, for example.


But that is the beauty of organic development. I can recognize that those liturgies evolved given the circumstances in which they found themselves in, without coming off affected in the process. I embrace that organic development from within that particular context, and Tradition.

As such, that is the Tradition whose praxis reflects that of The Church in Jerusalem.

Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Our Lady's slave] #374354
01/16/12 06:46 PM
01/16/12 06:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
New York
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Yehonathan Rafa'El Offline OP
Junior Member
Yehonathan Rafa'El  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
New York
Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
Originally Posted by Yehonathan Rafa'El


But I appreciate your personal recommendation, and will take it into consideration. The only "dilemma" is that as a Roman Catholic, I wouldn't be able to fulfill my Sunday obligation (nor HDOs) within a non Catholic Church. I believe there is a dispensation for Oriental, and Byzantine Catholics though. However, if they do offer weekday Liturgies, then I would have no problem attending, if only to observe and become acquainted with the Tradition smile. Thank you biggrin


There is no problem/dilemma - you attend the RC Church on Saturday evening for the Vigil Mass - then you have fulfilled your Obligation . This allows you then to attend the Orthodox Church on the Sunday morning .


I had not even considered that option. I guess I am so used to solely going to Mass on Sundays, whilst going to confession (When I'm not procrastinating...) on Saturday afternoons. Thank you for bringing this to my attention, I had not even considered that option.

Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Anthony] #374355
01/16/12 06:50 PM
01/16/12 06:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
New York
Y
Yehonathan Rafa'El Offline OP
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Yehonathan Rafa'El  Offline OP
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New York
Originally Posted by Anthony
Is this a Syriac Catholic Qurbono?

Thank you

In Christ,
Anthony

Quote:

Shouldn't it reflect something akin to this (Even if slightly Latinized.), given that they share a common Ritual origin ? :

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9EA7AC2A7C99B55C




Indeed it is. It is a community of Syriac Catholics from within Brazil. The Ad Populum caught me off guard, but I have also previously observed in one video on Youtube (The Liturgy of St.James), where a second altar was employed (after the main altar had been previously employed earlier in the day), and the Priest celebrated ad populum. Mind you, this was an Orthodox priest, so I have no idea where that came from.

Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El] #374424
01/18/12 03:32 AM
01/18/12 03:32 AM
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Irish Melkite Offline
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Originally Posted by Yehonathan Rafa'El
I apparently however do have a local Syriac community, but the address listed for St.George's in Brooklyn seems to be for a house on Google Maps. :-?


Jonathan,

Keep in mind that not all parishes or missions have the financial wherewithal to build or purchase a temple that would conform to what we would ordinarily expect one to look like. This would be far from the first such congregation to worship in a dwelling place.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Irish Melkite] #374440
01/18/12 01:42 PM
01/18/12 01:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
New York
Y
Yehonathan Rafa'El Offline OP
Junior Member
Yehonathan Rafa'El  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
New York
Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by Yehonathan Rafa'El
I apparently however do have a local Syriac community, but the address listed for St.George's in Brooklyn seems to be for a house on Google Maps. :-?


Jonathan,

Keep in mind that not all parishes or missions have the financial wherewithal to build or purchase a temple that would conform to what we would ordinarily expect one to look like. This would be far from the first such congregation to worship in a dwelling place.

Many years,

Neil


Oh I understand that, it is just that the Youtube videos of the Church give the impression that it is an actual ecclesial structure (Stained glass windows, etc.):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9CZnUaf-jw

I am however curious as to why they appear to be celebrating First Eucharist in that way. I always assumed Oriental Churches conferred all three mysteries of Christian initiation at one time.

Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El] #374458
01/19/12 04:28 AM
01/19/12 04:28 AM
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Irish Melkite Offline
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Originally Posted by Yehonathan Rafa'El
Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by Yehonathan Rafa'El
I apparently however do have a local Syriac community, but the address listed for St.George's in Brooklyn seems to be for a house on Google Maps. :-?


Jonathan,

Keep in mind that not all parishes or missions have the financial wherewithal to build or purchase a temple that would conform to what we would ordinarily expect one to look like. This would be far from the first such congregation to worship in a dwelling place.

Many years,

Neil


Oh I understand that, it is just that the Youtube videos of the Church give the impression that it is an actual ecclesial structure (Stained glass windows, etc.):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9CZnUaf-jw


Hmm, I can see your point. After much research, I can't find any answer to the apparent disconnect between the two. But, I've emailed Father Gabriel, the pastor of St George's in an effort to resolve the question. Hopefully, I can give you some more info in a day or so.

Quote
I am however curious as to why they appear to be celebrating First Eucharist in that way. I always assumed Oriental Churches conferred all three mysteries of Christian initiation at one time.


The Syriac Orthodox have some latinization/westernization. My brother, Michael Thoma, may be better able to speak to the issue of how prevalent this is or whether it is likely a case of 'First Solemn Communion' as discussed before.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Irish Melkite] #374474
01/19/12 02:31 PM
01/19/12 02:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
New York
Y
Yehonathan Rafa'El Offline OP
Junior Member
Yehonathan Rafa'El  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 22
New York
Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by Yehonathan Rafa'El
Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by Yehonathan Rafa'El
I apparently however do have a local Syriac community, but the address listed for St.George's in Brooklyn seems to be for a house on Google Maps. :-?


Jonathan,

Keep in mind that not all parishes or missions have the financial wherewithal to build or purchase a temple that would conform to what we would ordinarily expect one to look like. This would be far from the first such congregation to worship in a dwelling place.

Many years,

Neil


Oh I understand that, it is just that the Youtube videos of the Church give the impression that it is an actual ecclesial structure (Stained glass windows, etc.):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9CZnUaf-jw


Hmm, I can see your point. After much research, I can't find any answer to the apparent disconnect between the two. But, I've emailed Father Gabriel, the pastor of St George's in an effort to resolve the question. Hopefully, I can give you some more info in a day or so.

Quote
I am however curious as to why they appear to be celebrating First Eucharist in that way. I always assumed Oriental Churches conferred all three mysteries of Christian initiation at one time.


The Syriac Orthodox have some latinization/westernization. My brother, Michael Thoma, may be better able to speak to the issue of how prevalent this is or whether it is likely a case of 'First Solemn Communion' as discussed before.

Many years,

Neil


I very much appreciate that Irish Melkite, thank you.

By chance, does anyone know the proper salutatory greeting for a Bishop of The Syriac (or Oriental Churches in general) Church when writing a letter ? Would it still be, 'Your Excellency' ?

Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El] #374526
01/20/12 05:28 AM
01/20/12 05:28 AM
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Massachusetts
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Irish Melkite Offline
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Originally Posted by Yehonathan Rafa'El
By chance, does anyone know the proper salutatory greeting for a Bishop of The Syriac (or Oriental Churches in general) Church when writing a letter ? Would it still be, 'Your Excellency' ?


As regards both Syriac Churches and the Maronite Church, Sayedna is acceptable in spoken address. Although Mor is commonly used by the Syriacs as well.

As regards the Malankara Churches, the Malabarese Church, the Chaldean Church, and both the Assyrian and Ancient Churches of the East, in speaking, one would address them as either Mar or Mor (I forget, off-hand, which Church uses which spelling).

Abuna is the spoken usage for hierarchs of the Ethiopian and Eritean Churches. Abba for those of the Coptic Church.

The Armenians, yepiskopos (phonetic, as best I can do it).

As to written protocol for the Syriacs, at least, I'll PM Michael and draw his attention here.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El] #374542
01/20/12 02:06 PM
01/20/12 02:06 PM
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The only real reason I could assume why that Syriac Orthodox priest was celebrating versus populum is that the church was situated backward. There is no approved instance of celebrating not facing East that I am aware either by Malankara Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, or Syro-Malankara Catholics or Church of the East (ideally, neither Syriac Catholics, Chaldean Catholics or Maronites either!), unless by particular circumstance of which I am unaware.

Although I am unaware of any latinization imposed on the Syriac Orthodox to the level of the Byzantine Churches -- there has always been a close tie between the Syriac Churches and the Latin Church. Even when there were divisions among them, they have recognized one other as successors of St. Peter and kept more than a cordial relationship - for example: after his deposition by Islamic rulers, the "Gregorian Calendar" was created by the Syriac Patriarch living in Rome, HH Ignatius Nemet'Alah I http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_Nemet_Allah_I ; Gregorian Chant was most assuredly Influenced Syriac Chant and music https://bu.digication.com/eastandwest/Final_thoughts ; etc


Regarding the cope over that deacon, he was being ordained into the subdeaconate from the role of Reader-Deacon: http://sor.cua.edu/Vestments/ Scroll to the very bottom and you can see the various ways of wearing the vestment according to rank.

Finally, for the Syriac Churches - address the Bishop as "Aboon Mor" or "Aboon Mar" which translates "Our father, Master[or Lord]": for example. His Grace Aboon Mor Yuhannon Eusebius, etc.. Generally in contemporary usage, Syriacs in the MidEast tend to use Mor before the bishops name, as cited previously; in India, in between the first and second name. Lately, Orthodox generally have been using "His Grace"; Catholics "His Excellency" but these are in flux and tend to change often.

Last edited by Michael_Thoma; 01/20/12 02:20 PM.
Re: A "brief" introduction... [Re: Yehonathan Rafa'El] #374575
01/21/12 04:08 AM
01/21/12 04:08 AM
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Michael, my friend,

I knew you'd get here and resolve some of this (and even before I had an opportunity to PM you biggrin ). Thanks very much.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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