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#374942 - 01/29/12 07:54 PM Thinking about Translations and problems with them.....
DMD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 1211
Loc: Upstate New York
I was browsing youtube looking for a particular hymn and I came across a really fascinating channel by a person id'd as "Slovak President" He has a large selection of prostopenije sung in Slovak (not Rusyn) and in the expanded text box he compares the Slovak words with the Slavonic words familiar to all of us of that background.

A few examples:

Svjat, Svjat, Svjat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Q53oBlujw&feature=related

Dostojno Jest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIPJd4hCp...ture=plpp_video

Beatitudes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2f3Jx94a...ture=plpp_video

He doesn't try with Many Years! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VSomLiPD...ture=plpp_video

Octe Nas: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1chffugRQo&feature=related

After listening to them, I was really reminded of the difficulties of taking the familiar (Slavonic) and transferring it to another language, here Slovak. It is discordant, yet familiar. If it is so difficult to do from Slavonic to Slovak, a language stemming at least from the same base as the Slavonic, it points out the problems in transferring the same to English. Perhaps we all need to think about this and step back a bit from our criticism of the arrangements we have in both the BCC and ACROD. Just thinking, may we all have been a bit too harsh.......

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#375049 - 01/31/12 05:18 AM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: DMD]
bergschlawiner Offline
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Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 465
Loc: .
Hearing the Divine Liturgy in Slovak was very inspiring and did not seem to be problematic, probably no different than the Liturgy in Ukrainian or High Russian, or for that matter Czech of Polish or Finnish or Estonian. What's important is that the common people understand it.

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#375066 - 01/31/12 03:39 PM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: DMD]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6928
Loc: Falls Church, VA
It's a bit more complex than that. The translation must convey the true meaning of the original text, including all of its idioms and ambiguities; it must also be aesthetically pleasing, indeed, poetical, since it is poetic in the original; and the text must be singable. Accomplishing all three of these objectives simultaneously is not easy--as the number of really bad liturgical translations in the world attests.

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#375069 - 01/31/12 04:24 PM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: DMD]
Curious Joe Offline
Member

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 309
Loc: NY
I do agree with StuartK that translation is a challenging subject, art and science combined.

However, I did take it from your OP that you were reflecting on the challenges not only of vernacular use, but fitting such to chant in a manner that retained the character of the original setting as matched with Slavonic text - yet more art and science!

The samples you posted did, IMO, have some surprising rough spots in that regard. Much of what I had heard previously in either Slovak, Hungarian or Ukrainian was very well adapted and seemed quite natural, that is, very consistent and pleasing to the ear, as it matched much of what we had learned and retained in memory from Slavonic usage. There were some recent threads that provided really good examples.

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#375071 - 01/31/12 04:53 PM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: Curious Joe]
Curious Joe Offline
Member

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 309
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Curious Joe
The samples you posted did, IMO, have some surprising rough spots in that regard.


BTW - I'd be interested in the opinion of the fine musicologists of St. Michael's on these samples!

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#375092 - 01/31/12 09:00 PM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: Curious Joe]
DMD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 1211
Loc: Upstate New York
I think they were rough in spots and they engendered more sympathy and understanding on my part for those responsible within the BCC, ACROD and, yes, the OCA, who have struggled over the years with adapting prostopenije to English without losing its 'flavor.'

I will take 'rough' and understandable English any day, however over a dead language - even though I am of a generation where my heart is still moved by the old ways - for a little bit!I am not going out on a limb in assuming that our Slovak 'cousins' probably feel the same way!


Edited by DMD (01/31/12 09:01 PM)

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#375096 - 01/31/12 10:02 PM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: DMD]
Curious Joe Offline
Member

Registered: 02/29/04
Posts: 309
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: DMD
I think they were rough in spots and they engendered more sympathy and understanding on my part for those responsible within the BCC, ACROD and, yes, the OCA, who have struggled over the years with adapting prostopenije to English without losing its 'flavor.'

I will take 'rough' and understandable English any day, however over a dead language - even though I am of a generation where my heart is still moved by the old ways - for a little bit!I am not going out on a limb in assuming that our Slovak 'cousins' probably feel the same way!


Amen! I think you are right in assuming that vernacular is appreciated by our cousins abroad, from what has been shared with me by many of them I've been privileged to meet. Although I will say in my particular BCC parish, we have been prompted recently to do OCS (usually the Trisagion or Cherubikon) more frequently. The request came not from our seniors, but from none other than our ByzanTEENs!

We did have a few masters of prostopinije from prior generations who knew OCS and were able to (i) translate faithfully, accurately and poetically and (ii) knew how to adapt our chant to the text. I do regret that we have perhaps lost a little bit of that as time has gone by ...

FWIW - I thought the Blaženstvá you linked in the OP was actually very good!

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#375163 - 02/02/12 03:50 AM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: StuartK]
bergschlawiner Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 465
Loc: .
Originally Posted By: StuartK
it must also be aesthetically pleasing, indeed, poetical, since it is poetic in the original;


I thought the text was supposed to be prayer and not a musical performance, to be pleasing to God and not just the listeners. Poetical? Sounds like the translators of the Book of Common Prayer in English! Let's face it, if people hearing it already have accents how can "aesthetically pleasing" singing improve their prayers? That was the main reason that most of the OCA dropped "prostopjenie" for generic "St Vladimir's" style.

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#375167 - 02/02/12 04:17 AM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: DMD]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6928
Loc: Falls Church, VA
It is beauty that will save the world. David wrote Psalms in Hebrew of unsurpassed beauty. The Seventy-Two translated them into sublime Greek. The Fathers used them to create a Liturgy so overwhelmingly beautiful that the envoys of St. Vladmir "did not know if we were in heaven or on earth, for on earth there is no such beauty". And when Saints Cyril and Methodios in their turn translated the Greek Bible and liturgical texts into Slavonic, they were careful to capture and retain the poetry and beauty of the Greek, after which the holy monks of the various Russian monasteries composed chants designed to fit the Slavonic texts, so that the beauty of the whole could be maintained.

All that aside, any competent translator will tell you that when you translate poetry, you must retain the poetry in the new language.


Edited by StuartK (02/02/12 04:17 AM)

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#375190 - 02/02/12 03:41 PM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: DMD]
Phillip Rolfes Offline
Member

Registered: 02/04/10
Posts: 111
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Stuart,

Given what you have said above, I must ask, what is your preferred translation of the Liturgical texts of our Church? What about the Psalms?

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#375194 - 02/02/12 04:58 PM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: DMD]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6928
Loc: Falls Church, VA
None of the current English texts is entirely satisfactory. I tend to judge them by which cause the least pain or offense. Needless to say, the RDL fails as a "translation" of the Ruthenian Recension. My respect for the 1965 English translation, however, has grown considerably over time, in part due to the work we did with John Vernoski in putting together the so-called "study edition" of the Divine Liturgy translated from the Ruthenian recension. With the exception of some omissions, some anachronistic choices (the aversion to the word "orthodox", the use of "Mother of God" in place of Theotokos, and "ever and forever" in place of "ages of ages"), most of the problems could be rectified with a very light application of the blue pencil. For the most part it is accurate, lyrical, and aesthetically pleasing.

As far as the Melkite translation goes, I don't think that much of the new version, and would stick with Raya, who is perfectly serviceable, if you update the rubrics and restore some things that he may have omitted in light of Melkite practice of his day.

Regarding the Psalms, unfortunately, there is still no really good translation of the LXX Psalter, though the Orthodox Study Bible tries. My own personal preference is for the King James Version, still unsurpassed and a treasure of the English language. The translators knew that the Psalms were meant to be heard, not read, and when you read them aloud, there is no problem with comprehension, while the cadences and imagery are simply magnificent. We should hold onto these not only because of their spiritual value, but because they are the common patrimony of all English-speaking people, something that binds us together in a shared culture.

I have little time for the newer translations from the Masoretic, which either go for a didactic literalism that loses both the poetry and the hebraic idioms; or for colloquialism verging on paraphrase. So, I guess, the NAB, Grail, and Grail II are out.

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#375198 - 02/02/12 05:15 PM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: bergschlawiner]
DMD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 1211
Loc: Upstate New York
^ OMG, more Russophile drivel regarding prostopenije. The same nonsense has been spewed since the time of St. Alexis Toth. I suspect that Bishops Michael and Matthias and the late Archbishop Job would take issue with you on that.

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#375208 - 02/02/12 09:27 PM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: DMD]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6928
Loc: Falls Church, VA
My tastes in Orthodox chant are truly catholic. I will listen to, and sing, just about anything--Russian, Halich, Carpatho-Rusyn, Bulgarian, Serbian, Georgian, Greek, Melkite--it's all on my iPod.

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#375215 - 02/03/12 12:06 AM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: StuartK]
DMD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 1211
Loc: Upstate New York
Originally Posted By: StuartK
My tastes in Orthodox chant are truly catholic. I will listen to, and sing, just about anything--Russian, Halich, Carpatho-Rusyn, Bulgarian, Serbian, Georgian, Greek, Melkite--it's all on my iPod.


me too...

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#378175 - 03/30/12 02:23 PM Re: Thinking about Translations and problems with them..... [Re: StuartK]
jamesdm49 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/16/10
Posts: 22
Loc: Rye, NH, USA
Originally Posted By: StuartK
None of the current English texts is entirely satisfactory. I tend to judge them by which cause the least pain or offense. Needless to say, the RDL fails as a "translation" of the Ruthenian Recension. My respect for the 1965 English translation, however, has grown considerably over time, in part due to the work we did with John Vernoski in putting together the so-called "study edition" of the Divine Liturgy translated from the Ruthenian recension. With the exception of some omissions, some anachronistic choices (the aversion to the word "orthodox", the use of "Mother of God" in place of Theotokos, and "ever and forever" in place of "ages of ages"), most of the problems could be rectified with a very light application of the blue pencil. For the most part it is accurate, lyrical, and aesthetically pleasing.

As far as the Melkite translation goes, I don't think that much of the new version, and would stick with Raya, who is perfectly serviceable, if you update the rubrics and restore some things that he may have omitted in light of Melkite practice of his day.

Regarding the Psalms, unfortunately, there is still no really good translation of the LXX Psalter, though the Orthodox Study Bible tries. My own personal preference is for the King James Version, still unsurpassed and a treasure of the English language. The translators knew that the Psalms were meant to be heard, not read, and when you read them aloud, there is no problem with comprehension, while the cadences and imagery are simply magnificent. We should hold onto these not only because of their spiritual value, but because they are the common patrimony of all English-speaking people, something that binds us together in a shared culture.

I have little time for the newer translations from the Masoretic, which either go for a didactic literalism that loses both the poetry and the hebraic idioms; or for colloquialism verging on paraphrase. So, I guess, the NAB, Grail, and Grail II are out.


Stuart:

I read this comment with interest, and wonder if you include in your unsatisfactory assessment of currently-available English translations of the Septuagint Psalter Michael Asser's adaptation of the King James translation of the palms, published by the Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies in 2008, and which is, in my opinion, a major improvement over the standard Psalter According to the Seventy, and my own adaptation of the 1535 translation of Miles Coverdale, published last year by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville? If so, I would enjoy or, at least, be curious, for you to go into more detail about what you feel the shortcomings are. FYI, Archimandrite Irenei of the monachos.net forum has started a thread called "A Psalter for Prayer: Comments and Corrections", which you can read here:

http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?9128-A-Psalter-for-Prayer-Comments-and-corrections

David James

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