Friends,

The Gospel reading at Mass today was St. Mark's Gospel, Chapter 1, Verses 29-39:



As is often the case with Sacred Scripture that one has heard innumerable times in his life, new thoughts and reflections nevertheless arise.

There are numerous references in the Gospels of Our Lord casting out demons from the possessed, of course. This is but one example.

I find it curious that there were so many demonic possessions at that time. This is just one little town. And yet the Gospel tells us that there were "many" who were demonically possessed. And from the last sentence in the selection we can see that this was apparently not aberrant - "the whole of Galilee" was affected.

Was demonic possession more common then than now? If so, why? I've never met anyone who I thought to be possessed, or who others thought to be possessed. Has anyone on this Forum had experience with demonic possession first-hand? Why does not every little town and village in the world, in our country now, have the same or similar frequency of demonic possession than was apparently the case in first-century Galilee?

Alexis

There are still just as many demonic possessions, but we, in our wisdom, either accept them as part of the range of "normality", or dismiss them with a psychiatric diagnosis. In place of exorcists, we have shrinks. I think the former do less harm.

Exorcists probably don't charge $200 an hour either.

StuartK posts:

This passage came up in our Bible study group Saturday. I think the explanation can come down to two points.

The Enemy held many people in his grasp in earlier ages because he held a few and kept the rest in fear of his ability to possess whomever he wished. So he only had to actually hold a few to keep the bulk of humanity in his control.

Today, as Stuart points out, there are probably as many possessed. But there's also another even more important point. Today there are so many who are convinced that Satan does not exist, that he's a figament of medieval imaginations. That means he's accomplished far more in keeping human beings in his control and grasp. We're so blithfully unaware of our being in his grasp--until it's too late and we leap out into eternity into his permanent grip.

In the past he was more overt; now he's covert. But the result is the same. The struggle is still the same, too. How does one walk this pilgrimage and remain a virtuous individual in the midst of so many delusions, temptations, and challenges.

Bob

A few ROCOR priests like to say that in the fasting seasons the demons come and take hold of us and we fight with people etc.

Not a few of us have made the observation that, by this logic, next time we go to confession we will suggest that we don't have anything to say because it's all because of demons.

When people dabble in the occult, they open themselves to demonic possession. A notorious random murderer in NYC in the 1970's was called 'Son of Sam'. He admitted to being involved in satan worship. A black dog (apparently the evil one speaking through it) would tell him to kill, and he obeyed.

The mass murderers of Columbine High School were involved in the occult and were told to murder. Story after story of hideous crimes reveal 'voices' telling them to kill, maim, torture, etc.

If anyone reads the news at all, or even headlines, how, as a Christian, can one read about these horrific tales we see daily and not think that it is not pure evil possessing (even temporarily) these people to commit these crimes?

Recently I read a headline that a man invaded a house and slit a woman's throat 'for no other reason than to harm someone' but she opened her Bible and started reading to him from it for an hour, and this kept him from 'finishing her off' and he ultimately fled.

I remember reading a tale of a Russian woman alone and almost raped, but she called upon the most Holy Mother of God for help, and the men fleed. When they were caught they said that a larger than life woman stood infront of them and stopped them from harming the young woman.

I have heard many other tales, ranging form Evangelicals to Catholics, of how calling upon the Holy Name of God and the Saints, evil deeds of criminal men (thus temporary possession of demons) were stopped by large Archangels seen only by the criminals.

In the life of St. Nektarios the Wonderworker, a girl who was possessed (old fashioned style) could not be exorcised by any priest, and after many attempts the demon possessing her said that only the 'one with the nails' could do it. This stumped everyone, but after St. Nektarios' death and exhumation, it was found that his body was so intact, that even his nails continued growing...as news of this spread, the family of the girl realized what the demon meant, went to Aegina and to the saint's relics, and the girl was liberated. More interesting than this is that before the girl was liberated, the demon said that he was one of the three strongest demons on earth at that time..the other two being leaders in China and Russia...(LENIN!)

Speaking of leaders, wasn't Hitler possessed?

Are these acts of pure unadulterated EVIL by men not demonic possessions? I am sure they are, but not all the 'exorcist' movie type. Like Bob said, they are more covert...

Infact, from looking at the news, I would say that there are more demons unleashed and working through the souls of godless men and women today, than there ever have been before...

That is why it is so important to pray for Holy Protection each and every day.

Kyrie Eleison!
Lord have mercy!

Alexis,

This post is likely to get me harangued to no end - it's the kind of topic that I usually avoid because I have absolutely no interest in debating it (and likely will not) but I'm going to offer a more direct response to the question that you posed, the phrasing of which I think is particularly interesting.

How likely is it that Satan made a particular effort to possess persons in that place and time because Christ was there? By that, I suggest that Christ's presence offered Satan an opportunity to directly challenge Him. As we know from the recounting of the heavenly battle, Satan considered Christ to be no more than his equal and susceptible, therefore, to defeat by him.

Alternatively, did Christ allow Satan to possess more persons at that place and time because it afforded an opportunity to demonstrate, both to Satan and the masses, that it was He who was God and Whose power could overcome that of Satan?

I personally think both of those are real possibilities. I also think, however, that it is reflective of time and place - an era when there was little concept of any such thing as what we would term mental illness. (Heck, more than a few physical illnesses were routinely attributed to demonic origin or to being cursed or looked on with disfavor by God.)

As to the extent of possession in modern times, I'm probably more skeptical than my brothers and sisters who have posted on the subject. (Re-reading my reply, delete the 'probably' and, if I were wise, I'd have quit after the third paragraph. Oh well.)

Although I do acknowledge belief in Satan, I generally consider the recountings by the former Vatican exorcist (whose name escapes me) to be rather fanciful. (I note that he has recently spun a tale about the Pope performing an exorcism in St Peter's Square - a story emphatically denied by the Vatican.)

As a consequence of many years knowing and working with mental health professionals, I have a decided respect for them and their disciplines. I also acknowledge that there are any number of them who have counselling, therapeutic, and curative skills that are about as valid and effective as pow-wowing or iridology.

At the same time, I also spent enough years working in correctional institutions and interacting with their inhabitants to believe that the latter span a continuum from the innocent to the naive to the confused to the unwise to the mentally ill to the mean to the outright evil - and myriad other identifiable points between the extremes.

So, yes, I believe firmly that mental illness does exist as a reality and that the causative factors involved are myriad. They include brain defects, chemical imbalances, environmental factors, toxic exposures, physical and emotionally-induced trauma, and substance abuse. As well, I believe that there are persons who are inherently evil and persons who choose to be evil as a means to achieve an end, both of which groups oftentimes seize on the conceopt of mental illness as an excuse mechanism to avoid the societal consequences of their acts. I also have no doubt that such considerations as ideology, greed, lust, thrill-seeking, and other mundane (versus supernatural or psychological) considerations play into behaviors that folk are too ready to label as diabolically driven or influenced.

So, where do I believe demonic possession factors into this panoply of aberrant behavior and deviant thought processes? I don't know that, from a human perspective, we can ever know, because our ability to distinguish between demonic possession and true psychological defects is essentially non-existent.

We can discern the difference between a fractured limb and an intact one; we can calculate the presence or absence of certain chemicals in the system that are known to have adverse behavioral effects when lacking or when in excess. We cannot, however, do other than speculate or opine as to so many other factors in an individual's life and what those mean for his or her acts, thought processes, or behavior.

Alice mentioned Son of Sam. Did the devil in the form of a black dog speak to him or was he merely delusional as a consequence of some brain defect, chemical imbalance, etc? We can't know. The same is true of myriad other serial killers whose biographies are snapped up for reading material and played out across movie and television screens.

What of the malefactors who are 'inspired' by those? Are they really acting out on inspirations planted in their minds by the devil or are their subsequent actions merely inspired by some previously dormant defect that was excited by the lurid descriptions?

I have to admit that the seemingly endless parade of recent newspaper headlines describing infanticide by parents in particularly horrific ways, as well as the never-ending tales of serial killings certainly paint a picture of a widespread willingness to undertake and carry out evil acts. However, one also has to keep in mind that God gave us free will - to do or not do good, to do or not do evil. Does the devil factor into those equations, in terms of tempting us to take up the evil choice?

'The devil made me do it'? Only, if for every countering story of some act of incredible generosity or heroism, we're prepared to say 'God made me do it'. If those two choices are the answer to all the acts of our lives, one must put aside the concept of 'free' will as non-existent.

Many years,

Neil

Fr. Gabriele Amorth, I expect you mean.

JDC,

I do indeed. Thank you.

Many years,

Neil

I think Bob has it rather backwards: more people believe in Satan than believe in God. But far more people believe in nothing at all, which means they will fall for just about anything at all.

Logismoi? They seem to be quite prevalent. And can only be driven out by prayer and fasting . . .

I definitely agree with Neil that mental illness as illness exists due to chemical imbalance and even hormonal imbalance (in women), and that such occurences can temporarily set up a scenario for an act of crime or evil.

I also believe that some simply do evil out of their own 'free will'. The 'devil made me do it' is not a mantra for every act of sin, though he rejoices in every act of free will which agrees with his destructive and evil ways.

However, let's remember that holy elders, holy fathers and holy saints who are grace filled and who God has enlightened, have told us that flirting with the evil one (aka: occult) can have horrible consequences. In cases of those who have *admitted* to demon worship, and then premeditate horrific crimes, I do not think that mental illness can be attributed.

Many holy elders of modern times tell us, infact, how tormented by the devil those who have embraced him (through occultic practices and religions) but then repent are...he does not want to let go. This is serious stuff.

There are definitely differences, but we should not discount either one or the other. That is why exorcisms (in Orthodoxy) still occur, but only after consultation with physicians is 'possession' confirmed in order to proceed.

Stuart says that many do believe in the devil, but I tend to agree with Bob...so many today **do not* acknowledge his existence, and holy fathers tell us that this is where he is making his greatest headway.

Lord have mercy on us all!

To read the full article: click here

To Neil's point of free will ("God made me do it" vs "the devil made me do it")...

Fr. Amorth says demonic possession or obsession (the distinction is only one of degrees) comes about either by the free choice of the subject, or more rarely and mysteriously because God allows it to prevent some greater evil or accomplish some greater good.

If we accept that the sacraments can accomplish rather a lot if we let them, if we invite Christ in and ask Him to stay, can we not accept that the reverse may likewise be done, in small steps and degrees, by admitting Evil?

That is, if the sacraments don't overcome free will, why should this? We cooperate in our salvation or our damnation.

Admitting the possibly shaky theological ground I may be on next, it seems exactly right to me that the Devil would operate in this way. Demonic possession, the indwelling of a devil, seems to me a mockery of the Eucharist inasmuch as it inverts and perverts what Christ does through Communion.

You seem to be proposing a model that we live in a world where some people are just nuts. Maybe they are, but I like my version better.

Neil,

I agree that both of these are real possibilities, and also that there is little point in speculating beyond that affirmation. The message of the Gospels is clear enough: Jesus came to break the power of evil in the world, personified by Satan and the demonic forces.



True, but we also have to consider that contemporary attitudes are also reflective of time and place - an era when there is little concept of any such thing as what we would term demonic possession.



FWIW, I once had the pleasure of speaking with a nun who had served for many years as a missionary in Africa. She told me that demonic possession used to be quite common in Africa, but was becoming decidedly less so, as more and more people were being baptized. She went on to say that it is also becoming more common in the West, as more and more people are not being baptized.

Also, I once read an interview with a Catholic exorcist (it may have been Fr. Amorth, I'm not sure) who stated that it's impossible to know how many people in the world today are possessed, since the phenomena we usually associate with possession don't manifest except if the subject tries to resist the possessing spirit(s).



No argument there.



I know he's considered a "pop" psychologist, but the late Dr. M. Scott Peck definitely believed such factors could be identified, so long as we are willing to accept the notion that such phenomena as demonic possession could possibly exist.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Fr. Amorth also stated that having mental illness does not preclude possession which makes it hard to discern those simply mentally ill form those possessed to those suffering from both.

Slava Isusu Christu!

I believe that there are very few actual possessions, less than 1%, and that those who act possessed generally use this as a way to act out inappropriately when they could not act in such a way in the culture or religious environment in which they live.

I have seen the Coptic exorcisms on Youtube (for example), which are done in a Coptic church and are a mix of Muslims and Christians--the people obviously are in a state of mass hysteria in these situations--I cannot see this methodology as effective except as a way, perhaps, to show to the people in attendance the Coptic faith is superior to Islam, which becomes a way to politicize the rite of exorcism.

Exorcism gives these people a way to act out and release psychological build up or repression--it is not in any way demonic, but rather very human. It is a form of primitive therapy and could be useful with the mildly neurotic, but could also be extremely dangerous.

As Eastern Christians we are to emphasize the joy of the Resurrection and not the demonic. Could this over-emphasis on the demonic and possession be a form of latinization? I know exorcism is becoming popularized in Greece, Russia and Ukraine, but is this focus authentically Eastern Christian? I for one believe that the modern phenomena of the so-called increase in possession is purely human and psychological.

If exorcism helps mentally ill people to become sane, good--but let's not call it demonic phenomena and move on to focus on the the positive faith which characterizes our Eastern tradition--a faith centered and grounded in divinization, suppression of the passions, and the joy of the Resurrection. This is a good subject to ponder and analyze and I appreciate the topic.

Just throwing in my 5 cents worth.

In the Theotokos,



Robert Horwath

When it comes to demonic posession (and to so many other things), an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I agree that this sort of thing is deplorable, and that the rite of exorcism should always be conducted in private.


Either way, this is a complete misuse of the well-established traditional practice of Christian exorcism.


Please refer to Alice's comments above.


First of all, let's not use the term "exorcism" to refer to any abuse of the practice, much less reduce all uses to such abuse. Furthermore, all ancient Christian traditions have recognized both the phenomenon of demonic possession and the practice of exorcism, so you have no argument there.

(FWIW, Dr. Peck first diagnosed a possible case of demonic possession when he observed a patient who exhibited perfectly normal behavior most of the time--normal beyond anything a genuine psychotic could fake--but at other times exhibited severely psychotic behavior--beyond anything a normal person could fake. In over 20 years of clinical practice, he hadn't seen anything like it before.)


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Alice,

Thank you for reminding us of the dangers that lurk when we dabble in the occult. I have come to think that it is not the "occult" per se that is the problem, but that the important (and very dangerous) factor is a person's own willingness to participate in macabre, hellish or devilish rituals - if those two things can even be meaningfully separated when it comes to the occult.

Neil,

I agree with much of your post and don't share other posters' apparent aversion to scientific explanations of deranged and evil behavior.

However, I still think that just labeling what was recounted in the Gospel as a "misdiagnosis" is not a very solid answer, because the Gospel refers to it as demonic possession and makes that fact very clear. So, it really must have been.

There is also the explanation of some above that demonic activity was perhaps more prevalent, for one reason or another, in first-century Galilee (either because of Christ's mission and Satan's attempt to derail it, God's Will that "many" were to be subject to being easily possessed so as to demonstrate Christ's power, etc...). Something like that is the only rationale explanation I can think of.

I guess the big take away is that we can perhaps never really know what affects people's behavior in this regard because we can't apportion responsibility between scientific explanation and actual demonic possession. But judging from the tide of history, it seems scientific explanations are ever-expanding and demonic possession seems, to me at least, to have diminished since Gospel times. As I said, I've never known anyone to be demonically possessed, and I'm sure to have met many times more people in my life than the average first-century Galilean.

Alexis

One category of possibly demoniacally posessed people about which no one speaks are the wicked priests who molested children/young post-pubescent boys and their episcopal enablers.

These unfortunate people went around for years celebrating the Eucharist and administering the Holy Mysteries and no one usually was aware of what was going on in the shadows of their lives. Or if they were, they chose to minimize or ignore it.

Now that kind of behaviour is deviant at least but some demonic involvement can't be ruled out.

Often pray the "St.Michael the Arcangel, defend us in battle" prayer. Receive the Holy Mysteries of Confession and the Eucharist. Use the Jordan Water: a sip a day may keep fallen spirits at bay. And wear blessed cross & medal of the Theotokos on your person.

Who says they were possessed? Maybe they were just, well, evil?

It's a possibility. I can't hurt to pray that prayer.

Perhaps we should be more clear about what exactly we mean when we say "possessed."

In terms of exorcism, aren't we all exorcised at baptism? Does that mean that demons possessed us all beforehand?

If so, that doesn't mean that all of us were running down the streets speaking backwards Latin with our heads spinning around.

Now I'm beginning to think my younger sisters might be possessed...

Alexis

I realize this is a serious thread, but I couldn't help but convulse in laughter at jjp's description of what, one supposes, might be the ultimate latinization.

Many years,

Neil (wondering if the described act would actually be seen as an example of demonic possession or would it be praised as the ultimate example of liturgical dancing - performed while speaking in tongues )

Hah!

I think many of us born after The Exorcist can't help but refer to this to some degree, it's permeated popular culture. And I think that is what some of us imagine in one way or another when reading the Gospel stories, and wondering why it doesn't seem to be happening a churches very much today.

Granted, some of those stories are pretty intense (Legion) and would be pretty terrifying on screen. But others like the blind and mute man (Matthew 12:22) seem rather tame.

I agree with you that bad mental health and demonic possession can have a lot of overlap, and one may even lead to the other. My mom is a therapist and has told me about times where, in talking to very sick people, she was almost positive that demonic presences were emerging, if not outright present. A weak or troubled mind would seem to be particularly easy prey in that sense, and once a demonic hold is established on somebody, it is easy to imagine deteriorating mental health as a consequence.

But I also consider CS Lewis' Screwtape. I believe that the prayers of exorcism that we continue to pray are important because demons can make a home in our lives without us even being consciously aware of the fact.

I think that having an evangelically-leaning upbringing has imprinted the reality of spiritual warfare on me more than perhaps a cradle Catholic/Orthodox, and that can most certainly be overrepresented in evangelical settings, but the exorcism prayers that are in our Tradition are real indeed, in my opinion.

On the flip side, I used to think of the idea of a "guardian angel" as a nice story. Just as I believe exorcism, as found in our liturgy, as very real, it is very cool to also understand that there is an angel that watches over me against just such things.

My suspicion is that demonic activity is probably always involved when people do evil to their fellow human beings, especially when it is done in highly organised and extravagant ways.

Pogroms, mass persecutions, ethnic cleansings, the hecatomb of abortions, violence against helpless people, the victimization of children through "child porn, the deprivation of people's human rights - these phenomena come to mind as a few examples.

One of the most insidious ways fallen spirits may be at work, or perhaps taking advantage of our work, is the "objectification" of human beings. By that I mean stripping them of their personhood and thus believing they are but objects, or things. And once you turn people into things, you can pretty much do with them what you want.

I also suspicion demonic posession is far more widespread today than we might like to think.It's just very subtle and not at all as it's presented in movies. One can't always perceive it. Most evil has become so banal and common-place today; so ACCEPTABLE...those fallen spirits probably don't have to exert themselves too much since we ourselves do most of their work for them.

As long as people continue falling down in sacreligious "worship" before the altar of the Most Unholy Trinity: Privacy, Convenience and Choice; the demons have a wide-open door into which they can rush into our lives.

But God is stronger than they are.He wills our salvation. And His love endures forever. It's a love for US who don't deserve it So we still have a chance to attain that which the fallen angels can never do: we still can enter into into the Beatific Vision. And that's part of the reason they are jealous of us and hate us so much.

"Lord, save Your people and bless Your inheritance."

I will say I think it's a fallacy to think that mankind is more wicked now than ever. I'm sure every generation has thought that. It's only because you weren't alive at any other time. If you were, you'd probably be whistling the same tune. So I'm not sure I necessarily subscribe to the idea that demonic activity is more covert now than before because we're just oh so wicked they don't have to do much work. Just my two cents.

Alexis

Prophetic saints have said that there will be a time when all the demons of hell will be unleashed upon the earth.

Has that happened yet? I don't know..Indeed, history shows us man's inhumanity towards man was always a given..sometimes in the name of 'war crimes', sometimes in the name of torture for crimes against the state, and perhaps today in the name of sexual slavery and other such horrors that exist.

I don't know that in history, small children ever suffered as much as they do today at the hands of demonic monsters (be they predators or even their own parents). That may be a new demonic phenomenon and perhaps the most disturbing one...Lord have mercy!

A man just tried to kidnap a little girl from the toy aisle right in the middle of a Walmart. He literally grabbed her (saw the video) and intended to walk off with her? Why? Obviously to sexually molest the precious angel and then kill her. He knows that the chances are good that he will be caught. Most of them are...so, what prompts them? An evil/an addiction/ so strong that they cannot help themselves. In other words, a demon within him that has taken control of him.

Lord have mercy! When children cannot veer more than a few feet away from a parent without fear of being abducted, to me that says that people have subjugated themselves to demons (in this case, the demons of child pornography probably).