Newest Members
Sixupman, Peter Davis, AdriaticCanuck, johannah92, Aquinas98
5002 Registered Users
Who's Online
6 registered (William, The young fogey, Kolbe, Orthodox Catholic, 2 invisible), 128 Guests and 22 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Can anyone identify what tradition this star might be from?
Lost Community in Lynch, KY
Patriarch Gregory at EWTN
Panagia's Tears Prayer Rope
Recent Ecumenical Gesture
Forum Stats
5002 Members
26 Forums
32982 Topics
400415 Posts

Max Online: 2716 @ 06/07/12 04:10 PM
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#376919 - 03/06/12 03:45 AM Economics, Farming & Great Lent
Wolfgang Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 282
Loc: Florida
I was wondering if anyone could answer a question I have? Since Orthodox Christians are supposed to fast from dairy products, meat, fish, etc. during Lent, what happens to the prices of these items in Orthodox countries during Lent? If demand drops, the prices should plummet. Are farmers and fishermen subsidized by the government during Lent in Orthodox countries? Having grown up on a farm, I know that cows have to be milked twice a day. If consumption plummets, what happens to all that milk and all those eggs?

Top
#376922 - 03/06/12 04:58 AM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: Wolfgang]
Thomas the Seeker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 964
Loc: PA
Before modern agriculture (aritficial insemination of dairy cattle), Confined Animal Feedlot Operations (CAFO), etc, the Lenten fast was closely aligned with the annual seasonal rhythm of the northern hemisphere.

Dairy cows were drying off in preparation for their annual spring calving; chickens likewise had nearly ceased to lay. In short, fasting touched all of society, the reverant and the irreverant alike. But Christians were uniquely blessed to be able to join their sacrifice to our Lord's sojourn in the desert.

Top
#376961 - 03/06/12 11:41 PM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: Wolfgang]
Paul B Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 1730
Loc: PA
I would think that the milk which they had would have been made into cheese and butter. Also hrudka contains lots of eggs.

Top
#376967 - 03/07/12 12:17 AM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: Thomas the Seeker]
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 5834
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
Quote:
chickens likewise had nearly ceased to lay


My grandmother used to relate how eggs were preserved in the fall for use over the winter and into the spring (before WW1 and up to WW2). She called it "water glassing." From the description, it was some sort of thick liquid that eggs were placed into and then the crock that held them all was kept in a cool cellar with the potatoes, apples, etc. Water glassed eggs were good for baking, but not for eating as one would for breakfast, however.

Quote:

water glass
water glass or soluble glass,colorless, transparent, glasslike substance available commercially as a powder or as a transparent, viscous solution in water. Chemically it is sodium silicate, potassium silicate, or a mixture of these. It is prepared by fusing sodium or potassium carbonate with sand or by heating sodium or potassium hydroxide with sand under pressure. Water glass is very soluble in water, but the glassy solid dissolves slowly, even in boiling water. Water glass has adhesive properties and is fire resistant. It is used as a detergent; as a cement for glass, pottery, and stoneware; for fireproofing paper, wood, cement, and other substances; for fixing pigments in paintings and cloth printing; and for preserving eggs (it fills the pores in the eggshell, preventing entrance of air).

Read more: water glass Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0851590.html#ixzz1oO0wNGOY


Meat must have in short supply by Lent, too, since they canned the beef and pork they used over the winter in the fall.

Bob


Edited by theophan (03/07/12 12:29 AM)

Top
#376975 - 03/07/12 01:15 AM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: Thomas the Seeker]
JDC Offline
Member

Registered: 01/27/11
Posts: 607
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Thomas the Seeker
Before modern agriculture (aritficial insemination of dairy cattle), Confined Animal Feedlot Operations (CAFO), etc, the Lenten fast was closely aligned with the annual seasonal rhythm of the northern hemisphere.


Oh be careful! That kind of "lent aligned with the seasons and creation" point of view almost smacks of an argument against the Julian calendar! wink

Top
#377021 - 03/07/12 01:52 PM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: Thomas the Seeker]
Wolfgang Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 282
Loc: Florida
However, we do now have modern agriculture. And milk cows have been bred over the years to give larger quantities of milk. Take, for example, Holstein cattle. Also, most family farms still use bulls, which are more than happy to work year round smile. Milk is stored in large, cooled tanks on farms and is picked up by large trucks a couple of times a week. What happens to all that milk if consumption drops? Do governments in Orthodox countries subsidize farmers when the price drops during fasts? Surely, not all of it can be made into butter and cheese.
Also, chickens have been bred over the years to produce more eggs. Take, for example, Leghorn chickens. On egg farms, hens are replaced every 18 months, ensuring an abundant supply of eggs year round. What happens to all those eggs in Orthodox countries?

Top
#377031 - 03/07/12 03:44 PM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: Wolfgang]
Paul B Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 1730
Loc: PA
Ice cream, anyone? After Pascha, of course!


Edited by Paul B (03/07/12 03:45 PM)

Top
#377032 - 03/07/12 04:03 PM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: Wolfgang]
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 6476
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
I'll have some fruit sorbet now biggrin

Top
#377092 - 03/08/12 04:39 AM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: JDC]
dochawk Offline
Member

Registered: 11/22/07
Posts: 929
Loc: Las Vegas
Originally Posted By: JDC

Oh be careful! That kind of "lent aligned with the seasons and creation" point of view almost smacks of an argument against the Julian calendar! wink


So just what happens when you cross a Julian cow with a Gregorian bull?

smile

hawk

Top
#377113 - 03/08/12 01:42 PM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: Wolfgang]
JimG Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/10
Posts: 341
Loc: Texas USA
http://photo-junction.blogspot.com/2010/07/two-headed-calf-photos.html

Maybe that is where two headed calves come from.


Edited by JimG (03/08/12 01:44 PM)

Top
#377120 - 03/08/12 02:19 PM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: Wolfgang]
Alice Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 10821
Loc: USA
Pastor Thomas and Bob,

Thank you for wonderfully informative posts! smile

Wolfgang:

Until the fall of the Soviet Empire, the only 'Orthodox' country, per se, was Greece..Since atleast the 80's, which I can remember from, the largest contigent of those who fast were the old timers. In Athens, where about 1/3 of the whole country now resides, very few people fast the full fast and/or the full period of time.

However, you do make a good point, and even if fasting is not widespread, I would think that it would put small neighborhood butchers in a tough financial position! I was wondering about this the other day, actually!

As for milk and dairy, I would assume that little children still required this (47 days is a long time to deprive a growing child of its calcium requirements) so I am sure that in the past as today, from what I have seen, most children are not fasting from these and thus, their supply is still in demand.

The funny thing about Athens (and I have been there during Lent a few times) is that it is unbelievably easy to fast if you want to--all restaurants/tavernas serve the delicious 'ladera' (fasting food prepared with 'oil' and no meat)--a vegetarian's delight! You can find spinach pies with no cheese, and even McDonald's (a place I generally despise) has two Orthodox style 'Lenten' dishes on its menu!

On the other hand, since the 80's, in conjunction with the fasting food, one also smells the aroma of the 'psistaries' (barbeques which are common in tavernas and restaurants) going full force with delectable meat dishes (lamb and chicken gyro, lamb, pork and chicken souvlaki, the most delicious meatball/hamburgers called 'biftek' --sort of like the Lebanes kibbe, etc.)--and because of that aroma wafting through the air, *those* were probably the most difficult Lenten periods I ever experienced!

Top
#377189 - 03/09/12 05:19 AM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: Alice]
Wolfgang Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/05
Posts: 282
Loc: Florida
Thank You for all your replies. Alice, I also learned something new from Bob & Pastor Thomas. Life really was much harder for previous generations. And I fear that, if our current food-production system broke down, many people would not know how to grow their own food and preserve it. My paternal grandparents slaughtered their hogs & cattle in the fall and canned the meat, before there were freezers. They also butchered a chicken every Saturday for their Sunday dinner. As a young boy, I remember watching them kill a chicken on their farm and watching the chicken run around without its head! They also canned lots of vegetables and fruit. Grandma also made her own sauerkraut, ketchup, etc. They lived through the Great Depression and were survivors!
Thank You Alice for your first-hand experience in Greece during Lent. Historians always say that nothing beats a primary witness!

Top
#377198 - 03/09/12 02:10 PM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: Wolfgang]
theophan Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 5834
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
Wolfgang:

Not only farmers, but even people who lived within the limits of small rural towns did this subsistence farming on their properties. My great grandparents and grandparents each maintained a second lot either adjacent or very close to their residence so that every inch was gardened and every bit was preserved for theri over-the-winter living. They scoured the wooded areas for blueberies, blackberries, elderberries; made their own wine, sauerkraut, ketsup, mustard, and mayonaise; raised chickens, a turkey, and a goose at the end of the property. This only stopped after WW2 when these same towns adopted ordinances forbidding such activity. Eventually everyone planted grass on their lots as times became easier and grocery stores could provide what was needed.

Bob

Top
#377200 - 03/09/12 03:19 PM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: Wolfgang]
Alice Offline
Moderator
Member

Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 10821
Loc: USA
Oh dear, if anything ever happens, I will starve--not knowing a poison berry from an edible one on a bush! HOWEVER, I do know one thing that is very easy, and was, from what I understand the way that many Greeks were able to survive the Nazi occupation (they didn't allow them any food and thousands starved to death)--WEEDS!!--Those ugly dandelion weeds growing and sprouting up in your lawns! They are DELICIOUS and exceptionally nutritious!

Greeks still LOVE them, (and I have finally learned to as well)...just boil them and douse them with extra virgin olive oil, a little salt, and freshly squeezed lemon juice. My husband says that his grandmother used to give them the water it was boiled in to drink as well, since many of the nutrients were in it...to this they added lemon juice.

Here is a funny: On the grassy sides of the highways of the boroughs of New York City (Brooklyn, for instance) one does not occasionally spot deer like in the suburbs, but old Greek and Italian women dressed in black skirts and scarves, hunched over, digging for: Dandelion Greens!!! So many people probably see them and do not know what in the world they are doing!! grin

Top
#377215 - 03/09/12 08:58 PM Re: Economics, Farming & Great Lent [Re: Wolfgang]
Thomas the Seeker Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 964
Loc: PA
Local zoning laws have brought the demise of the backyard chickenhouse and family cow. In many small older towns you can still see the outbuildings which used to provide a family's milk and eggs.

In Pennsylvania everyone runs to the store for milk and eggs whenever there is a hint of winter precipitation. A century ago you might have needed to stock up on hay and chickenfeed, but your own foodstuffs were just a shovel path away.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >


The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright - 1996-2014. All rights reserved.