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#378968 - 04/20/12 05:20 PM Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads.
HeavenlyBlack Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 93
Loc: Lorain, OH
I won't mention the Papacy because that's a given, but the theology of indulgences is built upon the idea of temporal punishment and the idea that sin needs satisfaction, right? Doesn't that lead us right back to the Roman view of the Atonement (and, in the other direction, Purgatory)? So if Eastern Catholics are required to accept indulgences as dogma handed down by an ecumenical council, then doesn't that basically dogmatize the structure behind it as well? Our spirituality is founded, in part, on the Christus Victor view, and changing it will leaven the whole lump won't it? I suppose the solution is to merge the two (or become Orthodox LOL,) but... how?

No wonder ecumenism is such a headache. I suppose you could say there's a third way, that the second millennium councils weren't truly ecumenical and thus fallible, but that would wreakingball the whole Catholic Church and prove the Orthodox to be the true Church.


Edited by HeavenlyBlack (04/20/12 05:24 PM)

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#378969 - 04/20/12 05:30 PM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: HeavenlyBlack]
HeavenlyBlack Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 93
Loc: Lorain, OH
Well, wait, I suppose you could pour through the Fathers and try to find references to that side of things. It's just that it would change our outlook on sin, fasting, penance, the Liturgy... aye.

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#378970 - 04/20/12 06:04 PM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: HeavenlyBlack]
danman916 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 456
Loc: Illinois
I think that the way to look at it is to go back to the 4th century or so when the Church had the Order of Penitents, who were seeking to return to the communion of the Church.

When the sacrament of reconciliation began to develop from a public confession with public acts of penance to private confession, the roots for idea of what became indulgences was born. The Irish monks were the ones who began private confession and wrote the books of penitenials that prescribed certain penances for certain sins.

From there, indulgences developed in the west. The idea has always been that it is related to the Sacrament of Reconciliation and turning away from sin. Unfortunately, it began to have a more legalistic understanding of payment or paying off one's debt due to sin.

I think that, ecumenically, the Churches would need to view indulgences in this light to see what their purpose was intended based on the ancient practice of penance.

Wikipedia has an article on the Penitentials, for what it's worth.

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#378974 - 04/20/12 06:28 PM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: HeavenlyBlack]
Slavophile Offline
Member

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 273
Loc: United Kingdom
danman916 is on the right track as far as the background to indulgences is concerned.

Forget, for a moment, perceptions around indulgences and purgatory, and think instead about the notion of sin and the need for purgation.

As sinners, all people are in need of purgation - that is, the laying aside of the sin that weighs us down. As such, purgatory (while it may be defined in dogmatic terms somewhere), can really just be considered an extension of this life: in other words, a place on the other side of the veil of death where the process of setting sin aside continues until we are ready for the beatific vision.

As indulgences are merely replacements (out of pastoral necessity) for appropriate penances commensurate with our sins, then they are also merely part of that purgative process.

And in this respect, they can be thought of in a way that is actually quite consistent with a Patristic understanding of sin, penance, and preparation for heaven.

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#378975 - 04/20/12 07:02 PM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: Slavophile]
HeavenlyBlack Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 93
Loc: Lorain, OH
Originally Posted By: Slavophile
danman916 is on the right track as far as the background to indulgences is concerned.

Forget, for a moment, perceptions around indulgences and purgatory, and think instead about the notion of sin and the need for purgation.

As sinners, all people are in need of purgation - that is, the laying aside of the sin that weighs us down. As such, purgatory (while it may be defined in dogmatic terms somewhere), can really just be considered an extension of this life: in other words, a place on the other side of the veil of death where the process of setting sin aside continues until we are ready for the beatific vision.

As indulgences are merely replacements (out of pastoral necessity) for appropriate penances commensurate with our sins, then they are also merely part of that purgative process.

And in this respect, they can be thought of in a way that is actually quite consistent with a Patristic understanding of sin, penance, and preparation for heaven.


Here's where I get confused - aren't the penances themselves supposed to be the "purgative" therapy? So how does an indulgence replace the value of those practices when it comes to overcoming sin? Even according to the CCC indulgences are about debt. But, as evinced by what you all have said, the East doesn't look at it in terms of debt. But the Magisterium says it is about debt.

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#378981 - 04/20/12 08:29 PM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: HeavenlyBlack]
Slavophile Offline
Member

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 273
Loc: United Kingdom
I'll be honest and admit that I have no idea what the magisterium says about indulgences, as I probably only skim-read that part of the CCC. Having said that, I can't see much evidence that the magisterium included many medieval and late antique historians among their number since, well, Trent. Regardless, though, whatever the CCC might say, I don't think it needs to be the last word. The theologians that worked on it will have had their own theological assumptions -- assumptions that will hardly have accounted for Eastern interests, I imagine. And I am saying that as someone who was pleased to see as much Irenaeus and other Fathers cited as there is!

In any case, there will be entirely good, practical, pastoral reasons for the replacement of specific penances with indulgences.

If, for example, I fought with and killed my neighbour, as well as making legal amends, an appropriate penance might have been to make pilgrimage to Canterbury to pray at the shrine of the great St Thomas who was likewise killed. Such a pilgrimage might have taken 3 months, though, and meant that I would never work again. Instead, the penance could be 'commuted' to a certain amount of money that would stand in place of the physical penance, and I would be able to keep working while purging myself of the sin I committed.

And in that, although it is not an ideal penitential scenario, I can see nothing that can't be understood in a way consistent with an Eastern understanding of purgation as ascent to God and deification.

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#378990 - 04/20/12 11:10 PM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: HeavenlyBlack]
Carson Daniel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 5783
Loc: Walled Lake, Mi
Slavophile, With this explanation I am in full agreement. I explain to my students that parent and child relationships would be in constant turmoil if not for indulgences and that no marriage could survive without them.

My simple analogy would be this: If you are given a penance of many prayers and donating to the poor were given and a tornado tore up the town in which the penitent lived he might be given an indulgence of repairing some houses in the neighborhood.

I am at heart a simple man.

CDL

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#378993 - 04/21/12 12:37 AM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: HeavenlyBlack]
sielos ilgesys Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: Texas/USA
I think it's safe to say the average Catholic Joe doesn't know anything about indulgences. Most Catholics - of ANY ritual Church -
couldn't even define the term at gunpoint.

I myself know about them and their availability but don't much care.

Just thinking about them seems kinda kranky and unappetisingly savours somehow of Ultramontanism.

Reaction against their abuse contributed to the Reformation and are kind of an embarassment to many Catholics today.

Although H. H. Pope Benedict XVI indulgenced some observances connected with the recent "Year for Priests" I don't think they caught on.

They're just not cool anymore.

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#379113 - 04/23/12 01:41 PM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: HeavenlyBlack]
danman916 Offline
Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 456
Loc: Illinois
H-B,

Maybe this reference from the CCC helps explain it a bit:
Quote:

Satisfaction

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.62 Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must "make satisfaction for" or "expiate" his sins. This satisfaction is also called "penance."

1460 The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, "provided we suffer with him."63

The satisfaction that we make for our sins, however, is not so much ours as though it were not done through Jesus Christ. We who can do nothing ourselves, as if just by ourselves, can do all things with the cooperation of "him who strengthens" us. Thus man has nothing of which to boast, but all our boasting is in Christ . . . in whom we make satisfaction by bringing forth "fruits that befit repentance." These fruits have their efficacy from him, by him they are offered to the Father, and through him they are accepted by the Father.64


The Catechism talks about temporal punishments, not eternal ones. In this sense, it is referring to unhealthy attachments to sin, and our responsibility to restore that which we damaged through our actions.

Does that help any?



Edited by danman916 (04/23/12 01:42 PM)

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#379116 - 04/23/12 02:29 PM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: danman916]
HeavenlyBlack Offline
Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 93
Loc: Lorain, OH
Quote:
The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.


I think I read this wrong. Would it be fair to say that an indulgence actually grants us grace for purification? I'm not so sure about that, but it seems that's the logical outworking of the whole "following from the very nature of sin" thing. I mean, I can certainly understand the value of penitential practices in purifying us, it's just that the indulgence comes on top of the normal value of the practice. Actually, I think the Enchiridion says that it doubles the normal value of the practice.

It does seem that the debt view seems to be most popular these days though. Oh well.


Edited by HeavenlyBlack (04/23/12 02:33 PM)

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#379130 - 04/23/12 07:43 PM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: HeavenlyBlack]
DMD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 1208
Loc: Upstate New York
"Quote: I suppose you could say there's a third way, that the second millennium councils weren't truly ecumenical and thus fallible, but that would wreakingball the whole Catholic Church and prove the Orthodox to be the true Church."

Most academics seriously working on a construct for a reunited Church - both from the east and the west - pretty much agree that post schism Councils of the Roman Church would not be viewed by a reunited Church as 'ecumenical' in sense of the first seven of the Church Undivided.

East and west each has to concede first that neither did the west, nor the east lose all 'truth' from the time the great schism became set in stone. That can only be realized when a way in which to re-explain doctrinal divergence can be scoped out in a manner each 'side ' can accept without compromising their long held, apologetic and polemic understandings.

I still say that the best we can expect is a status quo much like we have today - we agree to disagree with a hug.

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#379151 - 04/24/12 04:22 AM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: HeavenlyBlack]
jjp Offline
Member

Registered: 08/05/10
Posts: 617
Loc: California
You can be Catholic without being Roman Catholic.

The Eastern Catholic catechismal "Light For Life" series articulates pretty plainly that the Byzantine East recognizes the first seven councils as ecumenical.

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#379154 - 04/24/12 04:40 AM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: sielos ilgesys]
sielos ilgesys Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: Texas/USA
Another thing which mildly irks me about indulgences is that they're vaporous and elusive. No matter how perfectly you strive to fulfill the conditions set out, you can never know for sure if you gained the indulgence.

As a child I would read in prayerbooks that if you said thus-and-such prayer you could gain an indulgence for having done so. I thought you had to go to the presbytery and tell the priest you had done so and he'd somehow tell you if you gained it or not.But I didn't know anybody who did that; and that priests would have had no way of knowing, either.

Live, experience, and learn.

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#379168 - 04/24/12 12:01 PM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: sielos ilgesys]
Carson Daniel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 5783
Loc: Walled Lake, Mi
Originally Posted By: sielos ilgesys
Another thing which mildly irks me about indulgences is that they're vaporous and elusive. No matter how perfectly you strive to fulfill the conditions set out, you can never know for sure if you gained the indulgence.

As a child I would read in prayerbooks that if you said thus-and-such prayer you could gain an indulgence for having done so. I thought you had to go to the presbytery and tell the priest you had done so and he'd somehow tell you if you gained it or not.But I didn't know anybody who did that; and that priests would have had no way of knowing, either.

Live, experience, and learn.


Isn't that what marriage is all about? In fact, isn't that what life is all about?

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#379190 - 04/25/12 02:35 AM Re: Thinking about indulgences and where accepting them leads. [Re: Carson Daniel]
sielos ilgesys Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/09
Posts: 1219
Loc: Texas/USA
Yes - to a large extent.

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