In Catholic Orthodoxy absolute worship is given to God, because He is the beginning and end of all things; while relative worship is given to the saints, relics, and icons (and other holy objects), because they have been made holy by participation in the divine energy.

Now taking this important distinction into account it follows that when a person venerates a saint or a holy icon he is giving due honor not only to the direct object of his veneration, but in and through that sacred person or image he is giving glory to God who made the saint or icon holy in the first place.

Ultimately, to reject the veneration of the saints and holy icons is to embrace iconoclasm, a heresy which of its nature involves a rejection of the dogma of the incarnation of the Logos.

Thank you for your post, H&M. I have always felt in my heart that the Theotokos is there for all of us, men and women both. As a father, I now appreciate even more that there can be no greater bond than that between mother and child. Isn't it common in many families that mom will be asked or petitioned before than dad, particularly with the most challenging subjects and requests?

It is sad to ponder your friend's experience, and we will pray for her. That the Mother of God is there for her and us, all her children, is a comfort that I for one believe God intended, as we know instinctively that she will intercede for us in worthy causes and petitions as would any mother who loves her children.

Christ is risen!

Regarding bowing to someone, at the beginning and end of the Divine Liturgy the celebrant bows to the people and the people return the bow, but I wouldn't even think of considering this to be "worship."

Aside from being the "Bohorodicen" the "Birthgiver" Mary's vocation is to lead us to Christ. This is the theology in many of her icons where she is pointing to Christ. Should anyone misunderstand and seemingly "worship" Mary, I would think that she, in her humble and motherly way, will take these reverences meant for her and present them to her Son.

As Mary points us to Christ, those who "worship" her will eventually truly learn that worship is due to God only. I would not become upset about it.

Fr Deacon Paul

If I were an artist and gave an exhibition of my works, I'd be delighted if the visitors admired my works and didn't all congregate around me ,offering me their admiration.If they ignored my work, I'd be troubled to the point of being offended.

Mary and the good angels and the saints are the masterpieces of divine grace. If we fail to honor them, that's a failure to honor God. One of the most significant ways to honor/worship God is to revere His masterpieces, the Theotokos and the saints.

Of course, veneration of Mary & the saints INdirectly offers worship to God. But it's all ultimately directed to Him. Mary and the saints have no meaning or significance whatsoever apart from Jesus. There's a distinction between DIRECT worship (owed to God alone) and INDIRECT "worship", which I don't call worship at all but rather veneration.

We pray to them in more or less the same sense we pray to each other here on earth. If I ask for prayers on this forum, for example, I am certainly not worshipping the people who read my post and then pray for me.

Besides, Mary and the saints are not dead in the sense that they have undegone annihilation or are ignorant of our needs. They are rather FULLY as alive as they can be; and because they loved God to a heroic degree; and because they love what God loves, it follows they love us, too; and are interested in our struggles toward God's Kingdom.

Are you familiar with the (Latin) distinctions between "latria", "hyperdulia" and "dulia"? If not, ya might wanna look into it.

Before I forget: abuse of a thing does not deprive it of its good. If, for example, some poorly instructed Catholics speak of the "worship" of Mary, it's just because they're uninstructed and it does not follow that their ignorance expresses the faith of the Church.

Lotsa Catholics have been guilty of serious crimes. It does not therefore follow that Catholicism condones crime.

You are invoking her prayers for you. Isn't that praying to her?

I think so.

We pray through her, just as we pray through the saints. They carry our petitions for us. God is the designated recipient, they are the router (or letter carriers, if we're using snail mail). When I ask you to pray for me, am I praying to you?

I've heard this argument before, and it doesn't make logical sense. Why does the number of prayers addressed to Mary mean that she is worshipped? And what method do you use to count? To me, the Rosary is one complete Latin prayer; therefore the entirety of it is one prayer addressed to God the Trinity through Mary. Others will say it's 10 HMs, etc..

As to the second point, I think most RCs will send their prayers to St. Jude, not the Theotokos as last resort.

and the third point, it's a given that ultimately God the Holy Spirit is the Animator of all the Saints, both in this world and the next. Giving credit to the actor doesn't detract any from the Animator, in fact, it points out His Animation more clearly.


Regarding your later post about bowing, against you've set up an arbitrary (and most protestants do this) action and interpreted it through your own lens, not with the lens of the one's who are doing the action. See this link: http://www.syromalankarausa.org/content/teshmeshto-d%E2%80%99shubqono
It is Our Father Bishop Mor Eusebius Thomas celebrating Teshmeshto d’shubqono, the Order of Reconciliation, at the beginning of Great and Holy Lent. The congregation asks for forgiveness as well, and returned the prostration to His Grace. We did not worship each other here. This Rite is as old as the Church in Antioch, possibly back to Jerusalem. I doubt the earliest Christians were worshipping each other instead of God by these actions.

Yes, you are praying to me when you ask me to pray for you. To pray is simply to ask something of another, which is why in court documents we still talk about praying to the court. So maybe some people in this thread do not pray to the saints, but I do, because I ask them for many things; and in fact I do more than simply ask things of them, I also give them glory, because they have been divinized by God's uncreated grace.

I also do not accept the Protestant take on the word worship that is being bandied about in this thread. The English word worship just means worthy of honor, and from my perspective there are are lots of people (the saints in particular) and things that are worthy of honor.

Do I worship the Theotokos? Yes, I do. I give her the worship of veneration, because by God's grace she is worthy of such honor.

Do I worship God? Yes, I do. But I give God more than the worship of veneration, because in addition to venerating Him I also adore Him, and that is a form of worship that I do not give to anyone (or anything) else.

I gave up uniquely Protestant ways of thinking and acting when converted to Catholicism more than twenty-five years ago, and so I really see no reason to accept the Protestant definition of the word worship.

The distinction between latria (worship) and dulia (veneration) described by the Second Council of Nicaea seems relevant here.

I agree.

Now in most English translations of scripture proskynesis is translated as "worship" (e.g., Matthew 4:10 RSV), and it is precisely proskynesis that the Holy Fathers of the Second Council of Nicaea said could be given to icons and other sacred objects and persons; while adoration (latreia) is reserved to God alone.

While there may be truth in what you say, you have to take into account the way in which people speak English today. To communicate the role of Mary in our prayer lives most effectively to another English-speaking person, you probably are going to run into problems trying to convince them that "to pray" means "to ask".

Have you ever said to the person on the couch next to you "I pray thee, hand me the remote control." I don't think so, because people don't use that word that way anymore.

Same with the word "worship". While the distinctions that you make may or may not have merit, Webster's defines the *verb*:

: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence

You will cause more confusion than you will give clarity if you don't take into account the way in which these words are commonly used, especially when trying to dispel the common misconception that Mary is treated as God-like among Catholics and Orthodox (not to mention the times when Catholics or Orthodox themselves have confusion on the matter).

By explaining what I mean in using the words (i.e., worship and prayer) I "take into account" what people mean today, but without buying into the faulty Protestant logic that underlies the modern meaning.

I worship the Theotokos and the saints whenever I venerate them, and I pray to them as well, and if that is a problem for some people . . . too bad.

P.S. - Someone better tell the courts to stop using the word "pray."

I will continue to pray to the Theotokos, which I do whenever I recite the Little Canon of Supplication, may she always hear and answer my prayers:



Gracious Virgin, who protects those who in faith flee under your powerful arm, we have none to plead for us before God but you; in time of adversity and tribulation, we sinners stoop down under the weight of our sins. Mother of God most high, we bend our knees to you and beseech you: Deliver your servants from trouble.

You are a joy to the distressed.
You are strength to the oppressed.
You are food to those who sink into despair.
You console strangers. You support the blind and you visit the sick.
You are shelter to the weary.
You are comfort to the crushed.
You are assistance to the orphaned.

You are the Mother of God most high and so we pray to you. Hasten, O immaculate one, and save your faithful servants. All my hope is in you, O Mother of God: Place me under the wings of your protection.

Well, only you and the person you are talking to know if an exegesis on the words "pray" and "worship" help explain the patristic understanding or confuse it. I have doubts, right as you may be.