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need help changing my rite #379738
05/09/12 12:14 AM
05/09/12 12:14 AM
Joined: Mar 2011
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Boston
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HandmaidenByzC Offline OP
sharonl
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sharonl
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Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I am byzantine Catholic but wish to change my rite to Roman (Latin rite) Catholic. I am a true believer in the Church and so grateful for my religious freedom. The devotions of the West are more in fitting with my spirituality...most especially the devotion to the Holy Eucharist, with daily Mass, Eucharistic Adoration. I know we have had these practices in the East...but EA has been suppressed, and daily DL is being discouraged, as in for example the Christ the bridegroom monastery. I respect the East to practice within the Catholic dogma. But as the Church has grown in revelation, and the saints taught us the power of the Eucharist, I really want to be devoted to Our Lord and Savior in this way.
Thank you for the help
God bless you all

Re: need help changing my rite [Re: HandmaidenByzC] #379741
05/09/12 01:45 AM
05/09/12 01:45 AM
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Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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Noone can stop you from attending a Latin Church but it is unlikely an official change of sui iuris church will be granted. You will need to write a letter to both bishops involved in the change.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: need help changing my rite [Re: HandmaidenByzC] #379764
05/09/12 08:56 AM
05/09/12 08:56 AM
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sharonl,

Deacon Lance is absolutely correct on all points. As far as the particulars of the process of such a request, it doesn't at all differ from that which a Latin undertakes to request canonical transfer to an Eastern Church.

While I agree with Deacon Lance that a formal change is unlikely to be granted (such changes being discouraged because of the history of the Latin Church in times past of 'poaching' Eastern Catholics), such do happen. One needs to be able to convincingly articulate in the letters to the hierarchs the specific reasons why it is important to their spiritual life and well-being to do so. The obverse of the caution we often give to Latins seeking to come East applies - one cannot be perceived as running from one's Church sui iuris, but running to the other such Church; otherwise, the petition will assuredly not be granted.

However, as Deacon Lance has noted, you are free to attend, worship at, and participate in the liturgical services of any Catholic Church, despite not being of that particular Church. The specifics of ascription to a specific Church only come into play as truly problematic in instances of matrimony, ordination, and when it comes time to have one's child chrismated and baptized. And, in the latter case, the Church of the father is, unless agreement between the parents dictates otherwise, the deemed Church of the child.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: need help changing my rite [Re: HandmaidenByzC] #379780
05/09/12 08:05 PM
05/09/12 08:05 PM
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Boston
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HandmaidenByzC Offline OP
sharonl
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thank you,
which two bishops would that be? I guess the administrator of passaic and the bishop of rome?
I think I have a very good case...I believe my soul will be much more nourished at my spiritual home. It is difficult to attend Latin, and yet also keep the required rules of the calendar of the byzantine. I need to focus on one rite and be fully committed not just allowed to attend. I relate to the modern saints and the practice of Eucharist centered worship.

thank you all
In Christ,
Sharon

...I do think the Divine Liturgy prayers are pretty and reverent, but it is not for me.
...I cannot imagine as a devoted Catholic, my request would be denied, and I would be left unhappy in a rite I only have because of birth
...I grew myself up in the west, that is where my conversions took place. the east was more of an ethnic experience when i visited an aunt.
...My heart is in the west, my soul is in the west, my soul is in the Catholic Church
...and I believe being too closely aligned with Orthodoxy one is forced to walk a close line with schism, and with nostalgia rather than the revelations and prayers given us from modern saints


no offense to anyone, I love you all, and pray we can all give our whole hearts and souls to the Lord

Re: need help changing my rite [Re: HandmaidenByzC] #379783
05/09/12 09:28 PM
05/09/12 09:28 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
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Glasgow, Scotland
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Our Lady's slave Offline
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You need to involve both Byzantine and RC Bishops of the dioceses in which you live.

You would be most unwise to include this comment in your letter

Quote
...and I believe being too closely aligned with Orthodoxy one is forced to walk a close line with schism, and with nostalgia rather than the revelations and prayers given us from modern saints


Last edited by Our Lady's slave; 05/09/12 09:30 PM.
Re: need help changing my rite [Re: HandmaidenByzC] #379797
05/10/12 01:16 AM
05/10/12 01:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,283
Texas
Athanasius The L Offline
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Originally Posted by sharonl
I need to focus on one rite and be fully committed not just allowed to attend. I relate to the modern saints and the practice of Eucharist centered worship.


Are you suggesting that the celebration of the Eucharist is more important in the Roman Catholic Church than in the Eastern Churches, or that the celebration of the Eucharist is not at the center of Eastern worship? I assure you this is not the case.

Re: need help changing my rite [Re: HandmaidenByzC] #379807
05/10/12 09:35 AM
05/10/12 09:35 AM
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Sharon,

Please don't think us unsympathetic. We are unaccustomed to being asked how to 'go West' or how to 'leave the East'. This is hardly the place where the average Eastern Christian, Catholic or Orthodox, would post such a query. So, it takes a bit of getting used to. The opposite question is much more familiar to us, as are members who present with some ambivalence about their Eastern spiritual identity and are seeking to explore and better understand it. You, on the other hand, initially appeared to have given the matter some significant thought before asking the question.

As regards one thing that you said,

Quote
It is difficult to attend Latin, and yet also keep the required rules of the calendar of the byzantine. I need to focus on one rite and be fully committed not just allowed to attend.


Do keep in mind that, if a request for a transfer of canonical enrollent is denied, it is possible to be granted a dispensation from observance of the calendar, fasts, etc, of any of the so-called Ritual Churches if one is living one's spiritual life in another of those. It's most intended to be applied in cases where a person resides in an area where his or her own Church is not represented, but I'm aware of instances such as yours in which it's been approved.

Anhelyna and Ryan have both offered very pertinent comments but, as to your most recent post, I think even something more needs be said in regards to the type of reasoning which will not serve one well in any request for such a transfer. In advising persons about petitions to go from West to East, we typically caution that disparaging remarks about the Latin Church's forms of worship, e.g., the Novus Ordo Mass, are not looked at positively in viewing such petitions. I'd offer the same advice to you.

Frankly, until this point, I'd been more sympathetic about the fact that your spiritual life had been fostered in the Latin Church. None of us like to see our numbers diminish, even by one soul, but it is not about us - not even about our Churches. It is about the spiritual well-being of each individual member of the Catholic and Orthodox faiths and how that is best nurtured.

We can no more rightfully insist or even suggest that the East is the only way to salvation or that it is the sole or even better way to go than we would accept the Latins preaching that of their Church. We suffered such Latin triumphalism for centuries and it decimated our ranks. We cannot justify the notion that turnabout is fair play. So, I'd have said 'go, in peace'.

But, very honestly, 'no offense to anyone' aside, your most recent post falls into the category of 'damning with faint praise'.

Quote
I do think the Divine Liturgy prayers are pretty and reverent ...


pretty?? The prayers of the Divine Liturgy, as those of the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine Mass and the Holy Qurbono and the Soorp Badarak, are part of the core of liturgical worship

Quote
My heart is in the west, my soul is in the west, my soul is in the Catholic Church


We - us - and our Churches - are the Catholic Church

Quote
I relate to the modern saints ...


I invite you to look at this page. On it are depicted photographs, drawings, and icons of 30 men and women associated with various of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches - 15 of them are 20th or 21st century martyrs, and they represent only a fraction of our Saints and of our martyrs.

Quote
I believe being too closely aligned with Orthodoxy one is forced to walk a close line with schism, and with nostalgia rather than the revelations and prayers given us from modern saints


My sister, Anhelyna, was kind - her only suggestion was that you not include this in any petition for change. You subtly disparage our Orthodox brothers and sisters, the Orthodox whom every Pope since John XXIII have embraced with love, the Orthodox from whom we have our roots, the roots to which Popes have urged us to return. You refer to our religious and spiritual traditions as nostalgia? You prefer the revelations and prayers given us by modern saints?

I will pray for your petition to be granted - I think it will be best for all concerned.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: need help changing my rite [Re: HandmaidenByzC] #379809
05/10/12 10:49 AM
05/10/12 10:49 AM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 46
Boston
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HandmaidenByzC Offline OP
sharonl
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thank you for prayers, no time to reply now. I will try to explain what i have been through, and why I find the eastern church not as conducive for MY particular soul...maybe it will give you some perspective on why the church is shrinking. anyway if you want to hear i will write...but i do not want what i say chopped up and ridiculed because i write with a love of the Catholic church it is just that the east is not meeting my needs, and i fear it could be the same for others...and perhaps my perspective means something. I do not want unkind remarks if i do so, cuz that is not good for you or me.
prayers,
sharon

Re: need help changing my rite [Re: HandmaidenByzC] #379810
05/10/12 11:37 AM
05/10/12 11:37 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
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Glasgow, Scotland
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Our Lady's slave Offline
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Sharon,

I struggled with a lot of difficulties trying to enter the UGCC - and my trials and tribulations were not spread all over the Internet for folk to see - just believe me when I say it was a real struggle .

You are trying to go from East to West - well just do it !

We are not asking you to justify your actions , we don't want to know what you find lacking in our praxis .

You do realise, I hope, that you do not have to apply for a Change of Enrolment - just attend a Latin Church , if that is where your heart is taking you. You are not male so the possibility of problems with Ordination will not arise. All you have to remember is that Eastern Catholics may not be married by a Deacon .

Remember there are problems in every church and every Parish. The grass is not always greener and more tasty and more appealing on the other side of the fence.

May God be with you as you go on this journey.

Re: need help changing my rite [Re: HandmaidenByzC] #379814
05/10/12 04:12 PM
05/10/12 04:12 PM
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Boston
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HandmaidenByzC Offline OP
sharonl
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no, i mean to say nothing bad, please forgive
what i mean is to say why the latin church would be a good home,
it is not much help to ask the latin forum for help, because they do not usually think it an issue, they often do not understand the common practice of rejecting rite change. there numbers are many more, they may not know we exist, and if so, would not understand the way things are.
i just want to change, cuz for me it will help me feel official at home...i cannot help the family i was born into, and they do not practice


well no more responses please
it seems there are some negative feelings about helping me
and it may be i have hurt some
so i do not want to do thatk
i think i will just write the pope and ask what i need to do
(he representatives may answer)

Best to all
and may God Bless you alwaysk
see you in heaven!!!!

Re: need help changing my rite [Re: Our Lady's slave] #379815
05/10/12 04:15 PM
05/10/12 04:15 PM
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Posts: 72
Canada
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Sharonl,
I will also pray for your journey because I know how it is important. Despite three very supportive priests, many letters and phone calls, my attempts to change my rite from RC to UGC failed after 3 years of wait.

If I could, I would happily and freely give you my latin rite.... I hope both bishops will be open minded.

Unfortunately for us, we live in the only Eparchy on the planet who does not want to integrate non Ukrainians into the UGC.

Re: need help changing my rite [Re: HandmaidenByzC] #379816
05/10/12 04:22 PM
05/10/12 04:22 PM
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Our Lady's slave Offline
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Sharon - you have been told what to do .

You write 2 letters - 1 to your EC Bishop and 1 to the RC Bishop. You explain briefly why you are asking for a change of enrolment. You must not say anything against the Church you wish to leave - you must be positive about the Church you wish to join.

You should also be attending the RC Parish for a reasonable length of time and you should also ask the priest there for his backing .

The outcome is not guaranteed but if you don't try you most certainly will not succeed.

Re: need help changing my rite [Re: Our Lady's slave] #379836
05/11/12 02:07 AM
05/11/12 02:07 AM
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Posts: 46
Boston
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HandmaidenByzC Offline OP
sharonl
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Sharon - you have been told what to do . (so sorry, i did not understand...i move every couple of months, and so of course i am in RC parishes cuz of the geography...i did not know if the bishop meant bishop of rome....thank you, and sorry to be a bother)


please no more responses, i do not want to be the cause of any negativity. just trying to worship best i can, though falling a lot, what i am not good at and what matters is picking myself up

May God bless the Catholic Church

Re: need help changing my rite [Re: HandmaidenByzC] #379847
05/11/12 08:47 AM
05/11/12 08:47 AM
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Sharon,

Prayers for your spiritual quest and that your petition be granted.

I believe you when you say that you didn't intend any offense and I aak your forgiveness for taking offense. We are, admittedly, touchy at times as we not infrequently encounter the kind of attitudes from Latins that you succinctly described ... "they may not know we exist, and if so, would not understand the way things are."

There are several persons here who have fought long and hard to be where they wanted to be, some with an eventually successful result (such as my sister and friend, Anhelyna), others, as yet, unsuccessfully (as is the case with my brother and friend, Francois).

We, none of us, want to see others have to go through those same struggles in order to worship according to whatever liturgical form they find most conducive to their own spiritual well-being and growth. Our prayers are with you in your request.

As you've asked, I'll close this thread to further comments. Should you need or want to discuss the matter further at a future time, feel free to open another thread. If you need information by which to pursue your petition, feel free to ask either on the open forum or by PM.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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