Newest Members
RichE, Gene, erniedee1, Kklcz, DMB, Cyrillic, AzzurriFan, cousin janie, lovesupreme, Dill-Bro Baggins, SERA, Raul Urbina Moreno, JXD, Pat Chabra Trueman, liquid_onyx
4743 Registered Users
Who's Online
11 registered (Paul B, DMD, babochka, crule, Fr. Deacon Lance, Ung-Certez, tomb, Utroque, BAK, Peter J, 1 invisible), 103 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Great and Holy Week Our Lady of Fatima SF
Blessing of Fr. Serge Keleher's tombstone. April 7, 2013
Sts. Cyril and Methodius Byzantine Catholic Church
Holy Ghost Orthodox Church Phoenixville, PA
Theophany 2013
Forum Stats
4743 Members
26 Forums
31693 Topics
387768 Posts

Max Online: 2716 @ 06/07/12 04:10 PM
Topic Options
#380240 - 05/18/12 05:30 PM Taxonomy - Rite & Church & Whatever Else
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9548
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Dr. Henry P.
I emailed "Joan's Rome" ... I also informed her that they are Eastern Catholic Church bishops and not Eastern Rite bishops.


Good luck with that Dr Henry. I believe that distinction has been explained before, but didn't apparently catch hold.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

Top
#380254 - 05/19/12 04:14 AM Re: Taxonomy - Rite & Church & Whatever Else [Re: Dr. Henry P.]
likethethief Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 1053
Loc: SF Bay, CA USA
Originally Posted By: Dr. Henry P.
I emailed "Joan's Rome" also and asked if they had a Roman Catholic mass. I also informed her that they are Eastern Catholic Church bishops and not Eastern Rite bishops.


Unfortunately these errors go in both directions. In his excellent letter posted here earlier to Metropolitan William, Fr. Tom Loya repeatedly refers to the "Latin Rite", and "Latin Rite Church". There is no Latin Rite or Latin Rite Church. There is the Latin Church which celebrates, most often but not exclusively, the Roman Rite. I trust people won't be jumping down Fr Loya's throat for this very common error, either because they don't know it's a error, hmmm, or because they see the bigger picture he is addressing which far overshadows this very common misuse of the terms.

Hopefully it's not because we can only complain when Latin Catholics gets it wrong about us, and Eastern Catholics are exempt from being expected to correctly describe the Latin Church and her Roman Rite. smile In my experience the vast majority of Catholics, including our clergy, East and West get these terms wrong the majority of the time.

Top
#380262 - 05/19/12 07:53 AM Re: Taxonomy - Rite & Church & Whatever Else [Re: likethethief]
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9548
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: likethethief
Originally Posted By: Dr. Henry P.
I emailed "Joan's Rome" also and asked if they had a Roman Catholic mass. I also informed her that they are Eastern Catholic Church bishops and not Eastern Rite bishops.


Unfortunately these errors go in both directions. In his excellent letter posted here earlier to Metropolitan William, Fr. Tom Loya repeatedly refers to the "Latin Rite", and "Latin Rite Church". There is no Latin Rite or Latin Rite Church. There is the Latin Church which celebrates, most often but not exclusively, the Roman Rite.


MaryLouise,

It's a side issue and this thread isn't the place to pursue it, but I'd have to disagree. In the West, persons belong to a Rite and Rites to the Church (which uses more than a single Rite). In the East, persons belong to a Church and the Church (in almost every instance, more than a single Church) to a Rite.

By way of example:

*most Western Catholics belong to the Latin Rite (with smaller numbers adhering to the Ambrosian, Bragan, and Mozarabic Rites,) which Rite belongs to the Latin Church (as do the subordinate Rites named); while,

*some Eastern Catholics belong to the (insert the name of the Byzantine/Greek-Catholic Church of one's choice) Church, which (together with 13 other such Churches) serves according to/belongs to the Byzantine Rite.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

Top
#380269 - 05/19/12 04:25 PM Re: Taxonomy - Rite & Church & Whatever Else [Re: Tomassus]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6927
Loc: Falls Church, VA
While we are talking taxonomy, we have a real problem with the word "church", which is used for everything from the universal Church, to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, to particular Churches, to the temples in which we worship. This invariably leads to confusion. I suggest the following decomposition:

1. The Church--the universal Church of God to which all are mystically enrolled through baptism.

2. Communions, consisting of several particular Churches; e.g., the Catholic Church should be designated the "Catholic communion", the Eastern Orthodox Church as the Eastern Orthodox communion", etc.

3. Particular Churches, each consisting of several local Churches, with jurisdiction over a large area.

4. Local Churches, i.e., dioceses and eparchies, belonging to a Particular Church, and consisting of several parochial or parish churches.

5. church (small c), a synonym for a local parish, and more broadly, for a Christian temple or house of worship, up to and including a cathedral.

If we were more specific in our terminology, a great deal of confusion and misunderstanding would be avoided, particularly in ecumenical discussions.


Edited by Irish Melkite (05/20/12 08:50 AM)

Top
#380289 - 05/20/12 03:05 AM Re: Taxonomy - Rite & Church & Whatever Else [Re: Irish Melkite]
likethethief Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/08
Posts: 1053
Loc: SF Bay, CA USA
Originally Posted By: Irish Melkite


MaryLouise,

It's a side issue and this thread isn't the place to pursue it, but I'd have to disagree....
By way of example:

*most Western Catholics belong to the Latin Rite ...

*some Eastern Catholics belong to the (insert the name of the Byzantine/Greek-Catholic Church of one's choice) Church,


Neil-

Can you set up another thread for this, or let me know the appropriate section for further discussion? It seems to me you are using "belongs" one way for the West and another way for the East and I would like to explore that further.

(I'm soon to bed and gone all day tomorrow visiting a parish in Northern Calif so may be Monday before I come back here, tho if I'm high as a kite after our visit to Ukiah I might hit the computer in the evening. grin )

Top
#380291 - 05/20/12 03:36 AM Re: Taxonomy - Rite & Church & Whatever Else [Re: Tomassus]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6927
Loc: Falls Church, VA
The word "rite" is also one that has many diverse definitions and needs to be clarified.

Top
#380293 - 05/20/12 08:57 AM Re: Taxonomy - Rite & Church & Whatever Else [Re: Irish Melkite]
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9548
Loc: Massachusetts
This thread was created from the Church News thread on the ad limina visit of the US EC & OC bishops to Rome.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

Top
#380306 - 05/20/12 09:31 PM Re: Taxonomy - Rite & Church & Whatever Else [Re: Irish Melkite]
Apotheoun Offline
Member

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 2455
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
The Catholic Church exists only in and through the local Church, and so one must not speak of a "universal" Church over and above the local Church.

Top
#380329 - 05/21/12 03:39 PM Re: Taxonomy - Rite & Church & Whatever Else [Re: likethethief]
Peter J Online   content
Member

Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 844
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: likethethief
Originally Posted By: Irish Melkite
MaryLouise,

It's a side issue and this thread isn't the place to pursue it, but I'd have to disagree....
By way of example:

*most Western Catholics belong to the Latin Rite ...

*some Eastern Catholics belong to the (insert the name of the Byzantine/Greek-Catholic Church of one's choice) Church,


Neil-

Can you set up another thread for this, or let me know the appropriate section for further discussion? It seems to me you are using "belongs" one way for the West and another way for the East and I would like to explore that further.


Hi MaryLouise and Neil. I've heard the "belongs" language before; but personally (for what it's worth) I'm more comfortable saying that a Church uses a Rite.


Edited by Peter J (05/21/12 03:40 PM)

Top
#380335 - 05/21/12 05:16 PM Re: Taxonomy - Rite & Church & Whatever Else [Re: Peter J]
IAlmisry Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 752
Loc: Chicago
The official line (Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium):

TITLE II. CHURCHES SUI IURIS AND RITES

Canon 27 - A group of Christian faithful united by a hierarchy according to the norm of law which the supreme authority of the Church expressly or tacitly recognizes as sui iuris is called in this Code a Church sui iuris.

Canon 28 - §1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris.
§2. The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are those which arise from the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.


Chapter II. The Observation of Rites

Canon 39 - The rites of the Eastern Churches, as the patrimony of the entire Church of Christ, in which there is clearly evident the tradition which has come from the Apostles through the Fathers and which affirm the divine unity in diversity of the Catholic faith, are to be religiously preserved and fostered.

Canon 40 - §1. Hierarchs who preside over Churches sui iuris and all other hierarchs are to see most carefully to the faithful protection and accurate observance of their own rite, and not admit changes in it except by reason of its organic progress, keeping in mind, however, mutual goodwill and the unity of Christians.
§2. Other clerics and members of institutes of consecrated life are bound to observe their own rite faithfully and daily to acquire a greater understanding and a more perfect practice of it.
§3. Other Christian faithful are also to foster an understanding and appreciation of their own rite, and are held to observe it everywhere unless something is excused by the law.

Canon 41 - The Christian faithful of any Church sui iuris, even the Latin Church, who have frequent relations with the Christian faithful of another Church sui iuris by reason of their office, ministry, or function, are to be accurately instructed in the knowledge and practice of the rite of that Church in keeping with the seriousness of the office, ministry or function which they fulfill.

Top
#380337 - 05/21/12 06:02 PM Re: Taxonomy - Rite & Church & Whatever Else [Re: Irish Melkite]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6927
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Except a rite is also a specific liturgical service or services, such as the rite of initiation, or the rite of Crowning in Marriage, or the Rite of Anointing. "Rite" writ large might best be described as "Tradition" with a capital "T".

Top
#380352 - 05/22/12 12:18 AM Re: Taxonomy - Rite & Church & Whatever Else [Re: IAlmisry]
Peter J Online   content
Member

Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 844
Loc: New England
As you're so fond of saying ...

Originally Posted By: IAlmisry
The official line (Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium):

TITLE II. CHURCHES SUI IURIS AND RITES

Canon 27 - A group of Christian faithful united by a hierarchy according to the norm of law which the supreme authority of the Church expressly or tacitly recognizes as sui iuris is called in this Code a Church sui iuris.

Canon 28 - §1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris.
§2. The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are those which arise from the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.


Chapter II. The Observation of Rites

Canon 39 - The rites of the Eastern Churches, as the patrimony of the entire Church of Christ, in which there is clearly evident the tradition which has come from the Apostles through the Fathers and which affirm the divine unity in diversity of the Catholic faith, are to be religiously preserved and fostered.

Canon 40 - §1. Hierarchs who preside over Churches sui iuris and all other hierarchs are to see most carefully to the faithful protection and accurate observance of their own rite, and not admit changes in it except by reason of its organic progress, keeping in mind, however, mutual goodwill and the unity of Christians.
§2. Other clerics and members of institutes of consecrated life are bound to observe their own rite faithfully and daily to acquire a greater understanding and a more perfect practice of it.
§3. Other Christian faithful are also to foster an understanding and appreciation of their own rite, and are held to observe it everywhere unless something is excused by the law.

Canon 41 - The Christian faithful of any Church sui iuris, even the Latin Church, who have frequent relations with the Christian faithful of another Church sui iuris by reason of their office, ministry, or function, are to be accurately instructed in the knowledge and practice of the rite of that Church in keeping with the seriousness of the office, ministry or function which they fulfill.


And?

Top




The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright - 1996-2013. All rights reserved.