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#381591 - 06/15/12 03:48 AM Linquistic question
Slavipodvizhnik Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 2674
Loc: The Third Rome
As is my norm, I can never pass up a good yard sale. Sometimes I get lucky. This past weekend, I picked up a Slavonic Psalter printed in Kiev in 1832 for $3. I got lucky! smile

In the front of the book, someone had written out in a beautiful hand, in Slavonic script, the following:

О, Господ и Учител на живота ми! От мен духа на мързел, малодушие, похотта на властта, и празни приказки. Но дават по скоро дух на целомъдрие, смирение, търпение и любов на слугата ти. Да, Господи и крал! Дай ми да видя моите собствени грешки и да не се съди брат ми, защото ти си благословен во веки веков. амин

Now I recognize it as the Prayer of St Issac the Syrian, my question is, what language is it in? Syntax and grammar are reminiscent of Church Slavonic, but word order and vocabulary are off. No dialect of Russian, Carpatho-Russian or Serbian that I have run across before. It seems like a mix of Eastern and Southern Old Slavic tongues. Macedonian? Balakaty Ukrainian? Anyone want to take a shot? I'm ready to go to the Slavic Dept at U of Pitt and see if they can decipher it!

Alexandr

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#381603 - 06/15/12 07:22 AM Re: Linquistic question [Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
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Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9533
Loc: Massachusetts
Alexandr, my brother,

How about Bulgarian?

Perfect translation from Google translate - the only language in which it translates cleanly - except for 'fudge' biggrin (and I tried every one of the Slav or near Slav languages available) - alternative translation of 'fudge' = 'empty words'.

Quote:
O Lord and Master of my life! (Take) from me the spirit of laziness, cowardice, lust of power, and fudge. But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience and love to Thy servant. Yes, Lord and King! Let me see my own mistakes and not to judge my brother, because you are blessed forever. amen


But, it's The Great Prayer of St Ephraim the Syrian, not St Isaac the Syrian.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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#381604 - 06/15/12 07:34 AM Re: Linquistic question [Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
Slavipodvizhnik Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 2674
Loc: The Third Rome
Neil, you are a genius! I don't know why I didn't think of that! Genuine Balakaty Bulgarian! Balakaty, in Ukranian means "to babble" and was a derisive term used to describe Cossack speech, which was a mixture of Russian, Ukrainian and Tatar words. The word order is not modern Bulgarian, but could be some local dialect. What has me stumped, is that we've got tons of Ukies, Carps, Rusnaks, Serbs, Croats, Poles and other Slavs, but Bulgars in SW Pa? I can count 3 and Bishop Kirill of the OCA passed away, so make that 2! Where did this Psalter come from? And who would write out Bulgarian in Old Slavonic script? Hmmmmm....


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#381605 - 06/15/12 07:36 AM Re: Linquistic question [Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
Slavipodvizhnik Offline
Member

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 2674
Loc: The Third Rome
Fudge???? LOL!!!! Gotta love machine translations!

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#381606 - 06/15/12 07:51 AM Re: Linquistic question [Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
Our Lady's slave Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/01
Posts: 6319
Loc: Glasgow, Scotland
And if you don't want that Psalter , Alexandr, I just happen to know someone who would love to have it smile

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#381610 - 06/15/12 09:25 AM Re: Linquistic question [Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9533
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik
What has me stumped, is that we've got tons of Ukies, Carps, Rusnaks, Serbs, Croats, Poles and other Slavs, but Bulgars in SW Pa?


Alexandr,

Bulgarian Macedonian National Educational and Cultural Center in Homestead - enough southwest for you?

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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#381613 - 06/15/12 11:43 AM Re: Linquistic question [Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
John Schweich Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 252
Loc: Beaver PA
But no Bulgarian Orthodox Church in SW PA. I believe the Bulraian-Macedonian church in Steelton PA, near Harrisburg, which just closed, was the only Bulgarian church in the state.

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#381616 - 06/15/12 02:12 PM Re: Linquistic question [Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
DMD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 1197
Loc: Upstate New York
Many of us know a remarkable Bulgarian from Pittsburgh who spent his life travelling the northeast painting the interiors of both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches! While his health isn't what it used to be, master church painter George Nedelkov still swings a 'mean brush!'He painted many a large church all by himself, including scaffolding and cleaning! Many Years! Mnohaja lit!

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#381619 - 06/15/12 03:11 PM Re: Linquistic question [Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
Jaya Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 574
Loc: Ohio
I can confirm that it is definitely Bulgarian!

As for the word order, I'm no expert, but I only speak modern Bulgarian, and it reads pretty normal to me. I know we have at least one forum member from Bulgaria, maybe he can weigh in on it.


Edited by Jaya (06/15/12 03:16 PM)

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#381625 - 06/15/12 06:16 PM Re: Linquistic question [Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
Fr. Al Offline
Member

Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 324
Loc: Farmington Hills,MI
Just speaking about Bulgarians and Macedonians on another thread!I recall the late,Nick Marusov,my parishoner in Houston,TX,a native son of the OCA parish in Homstead,PA.He claimed that there was a local minority of Bulgarians in that parish,which is located in the Pittsburgh area.

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#381655 - 06/16/12 07:41 AM Re: Linquistic question [Re: Jaya]
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9533
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Jaya
I know we have at least one forum member from Bulgaria, maybe he can weigh in on it.


I actually just e-mailed ag_vin on another matter and meant to call this thread to his attention. I'll send him a follow-up.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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#381658 - 06/16/12 08:09 AM Re: Linquistic question [Re: Irish Melkite]
Jaya Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 574
Loc: Ohio
Think I see a few errors in it (or typos). But my Bulgarian is getting rusty - it's been awhile. However, it sounds like standard modern Bulgarian to me. If it weren't, I think I'd have trouble understanding it. We'll see what ag_vn can tell us.


Edited by Jaya (06/16/12 08:12 AM)

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#381660 - 06/16/12 08:22 AM Re: Linquistic question [Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
Irish Melkite Offline
Global Moderator
Member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9533
Loc: Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik
The word order is not modern Bulgarian, but could be some local dialect.


Alexandr, my brother,

While I can't claim any knowledge of Bulgarian, Modern or otherwise, (other than what little I picked up in working on the directory entries for Bulgaria) - nor any of Old Slavonic, it seems unlikely to me that Google Translate would have translated anything other than Modern Bulgarian that well. (What I posted was, with the exception of the parenthetical) precisely what was rendered.

Having relied on machine translations in multiple languages for a long time, I'm not sure that I can ever remember any of them producing such a clean translation. Virtually every one that I've ever seen has required a great deal of tweaking to produce anything vaguely resembling a truly coherent result. To me, that argues strongly for Modern Bulgarian - as, of course, do Jaya's perceptions.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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#381665 - 06/16/12 01:56 PM Re: Linquistic question [Re: Slavipodvizhnik]
ag_vn Offline
Member

Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 120
Loc: BG
Yes, it's Bulgarian smile

It would be interesting to find out when it was written - in 1832 or later. It looks like a free translation of the prayer (probably from Church Slavonic) to Bulgarian. I guess the current Bulgarian translation of the prayer wasn't available yet, so it's possible that it was written in the 19th century.

As a whole the text sounds even more modern than the current Bulgarian version of prayer, which contains some archaic words.

"О, Господ и Учител на живота ми!" - In that first sentence "Teacher" is used instead of "Master" (Vladyka).

The second sentence is missing a verb. The more modern "празни приказки" is used instead of "празнословие" here, which is archaic, but let's say more liturgical.

There is an error/typo in the third sentence, as "дават" is used instead of "дай".

Curiously "крал" is used instead of "цар".

Last sentence also contains an error/typo as it reads "да не се съди брат ми", instead for example "да не съдя/осъждам брат си".


Here is the translation used by the Bulgarian Orthodox Church:

Господи и Владико на моя живот,
не ми давай дух на безделие, униние, властолюбие и празнословие.

Но дух на целомъдрие, смиреномъдрие, търпение и любов дарувай на мене, Твоя раб.

Ей, Господи Царю! дарувай ми да виждам моите прегрешения
и да не осъждам моя брат, защото си благословен во веки веков.
Амин.

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#381704 - 06/17/12 04:31 AM Re: Linquistic question [Re: ag_vn]
Jaya Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/09
Posts: 574
Loc: Ohio
Thanks, Angel. Your post was very interesting, and also heartening for me to see that I had picked up on some of the same errors and oddities that you did - maybe my Bulgarian hasn't gotten as rusty as I had feared! And the current Orthodox version that you posted is definitely not as linguistically comfortable to me, while the more modern one at the top of the thread makes me nostalgic for Bulgaria. smile

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