Dear Forum Members,
Glory be to Jesus Christ!

At the local ROCOR church I regularly attend, the people ALWAYS make the sign of the cross at each and every "Lord, have mercy-Gospodi, Pomiluy"-at my Ukrainian Catholic parish, NO-ONE makes the sign of the cross at "Lord, have mercy-Hospodi, Pomiluy". Is this just a Russian-Ukrainain custom difference, or do Ukrainian Orthodox also make the sign of the cross during the Holy Liturgy at the "Lord, have mercy"?-have the Ukrainian Catholics just dropped this tradition?

Also, another thing I have noticed is that Ukrainian Catholics make the sign of the cross when the priest makes the sign of the cross over them during the Holy Liturgy ("Peace be with all", etc...), but Orthodox just bow-why and who is right here?

Thank You!

Yes, I've noticed the same thing (making of sign of Cross at each "Lord have mercy" in the ektenias) @ St. Seraphim OCA Cathedral in Dallas. I just figured it was a very legitimate Russian custom; and that one was free to do it or not...I was taught to make the Sign of the Cross whenever the persons of the Blessed Trinity are mentioned and at petitions in the ektenias which have a personally significant subjective meaning for the individual worshipper; also when "let us be attentive!" is intoned before the Epistle and Gospel readings...Sometimes I make the Sign of the Cross when the priest blesses or swings the censer in my general direction; also bow and/or make the Sign of the Cross during the Little Entrance as the Gospel book goes by and the same when the Gifts are carried past during the Great Entrance...seems to me making the Sign of the Cross at the sacerdotal blessing is also a legitimate custom particularly amongst Ukrainian Catholics...either way is OK.

One thing I like is this alternative version of the words spoken with the Sign of the Cross: "The Father is our hope; the Son is our refuge; the Holy Spirit is our consolation. O All-Holy Trinity, glory be to You."

Lots of legitimate diversity in our Byzantine Christianity - which appeals to me.

Yes, this is correct. Do as the Spirit moves you. While one may argue about "his/her" way being right, pay no attention. There is no scandal nor blasphemy involved. We can nitpick details, but of what value is it?

It is in the back of the Jordanville prayerbook. I think it was adapted from the domestic rule.

Really, only in the Russian Old Rite or among Old Believers is there a right or wrong time. For them, the liturgy and prayer is not about personal piety (when i feel like it or am moved to do so), but an expression of the unity of the Faith. But given their history, the emphasis on the externals as such is understandable and fits with the form of worship they are trying to preserve and pass on. But outside such communities (i.e. that vast, vast majority), there is a freedom, but you also abide by local custom. There is a saying that a monk should not bring his typikon into another monastery

In Christ,
Adam

Adam,

Both the Jordanville prayer book, from ROCOR, and the Old Believers prayer book, from the Old rite of ROCOR, are adapted from the domestic rule. Seeing that this is a question asked about observations of ROCOR practice, it would only be reasonable to give a starting point from ROCOR. I am sure that your jurisdiction has a standard practice for corporate prayer.

We were always instructed,in ROCOR,that when one receives a blessing there is no need to bless oneself, for you are receiving a blessing. As for the domestic rule, or Domostroy, it was written in the fifteenth century. So I guess it is reasonable that there might be some expectation of continuity, in ROCOR at least.

The domostroi is the not the domestic rule (ustav domashney - http://staropomor.ru/Ustav(2)/krasn_ustav.html . They are very different books.

Domostroi is an Orthodox life-style guide (aimed at the ruling classes)while the ustav domashney /domestic rule is a prayer manual/guide with notes about praxis: fasting according to different typika, prostrations, sign of the cross etc. Furthermore, neither of the prayerbooks mentioned can really be said to be based on the ustav, as they contain only a tiny amount from it. Prayerbooks are a 'modern' development in the life of the Church and the Old Rite prayer book is really based on the chasoslov and the kannonik, with bits from other sources.

... and Old Believers love ustav domashney (I don't think anyone else uses it), but never liked domostroi.

Thank you for the clarification. It is my understanding that both prayer books used the same source, from the ustav domashney. The prayers are alike in both books.

I am Ukrainian Greek Catholic and at my parish there is also a lot of typical Byzantine Diversity as to when people make the Sign of the Cross. Everybody makes the Sign of the Cross when the Blessed Trinity is mentioned, and at every "Grant this, O Lord/Podai, Gospodi." Some of us also make the Sign of the Cross when the name of the Theotokos is mentioned (I do this), when Christ's Life-Giving Passion is mentioned (Matushka), during the Our Father at "Forgive us our tresspasses," and we have on Russian Orthodox parishoner who makes the Sign of the Cross at every "Lord have mercy/Gospodi, pomiluj" and also kneels/prostrates during the Words of Institution and the Epiclesis. So yeah. Lots of diversity here in the Byzantine East!

A key question is, do people make the sign of the cross properly, or do they look like they're playing the banjo or polishing their buttons?

My Greek primary pupils were always winding me up with their high speed gestures. I constantly tried to get them to make the sign of the cross carefully and prayerfully, and convince then that it didn't have to be done three times.

I don't know what it's like in Byzantine Catholic churches. Hopefully not the same.

Oh, I thought they were chasing flies away!

Dear Father Mark,

Hehehe...it is a Greek custom which evolved there for some reason. Don't you know, it comes from wanting to play the bouzouki!!

Seriously though in Greece, there are some pious folk who do NOT do it this way..There are of course many more who do it the way you say, quickly and close to the heart, and I wonder if that might have come from the need to be non-conspicuous during the Ottoman occupation?

In Christ,
Alice

The OCA parish I've been to does the same. But in my UGCC parish we only do so when the name(s) of God is mentioned (Father, Son, Holy Spirit).

For many years I have made the sign of the Cross at the words "let us commend ourselves and one another, and our whole life to Christ our God".

I attended Holy Trinity Russian Catholic chapel in Paris for about six months back in the '80's and started making the sign of the cross whenever we sang "Christ is Risen...."

With best wishes to all!
Stefan