Justin:

Okay, that's a great answer, actually. You regard the Ukrainian Church with respect to praxis and discipline rather than to it's national designation or primary ethnic orientation, and that praxis and discipline more genuinely defines "Ukrainian Catholic" for you than the church's quality of being Ukrainian. That makes sense to me.

That's a very Western way of looking at things. As Father Taft said (see above):

StuartK:

"That's a very Western way of looking at things."

So be it; I'm a Westerner.

You quote the following from from Father Taft, SJ (whose easy-to-read [that's sarcasm] "The Byzantine Rite: A Short History" I am currently reading):

"The Oriental is not disturbed by the fact that his rite is less widespread than another. His worship is meaningful to him because it is intimately his, not because it is also yours."

I have to respond that that doesn't really speak to the issue I've made my pet in this thread; not really. The rest of Father Taft's quote, however, does speak to it and actually makes my own point to an extent:

"That his religion, his worship, should be inextricably bound up with the history and life of his people, that he should worship God in a language that is the fruit of his own culture with a liturgy which preserved not only the faith but also the sense of national unity of his forefathers during dark days of oppression--this is what matters."

If all that is so, how could, say, a non-Ukrainian convert to the Ukrainian Catholic Church (to use it as an example) second that idea? It is a worship that is not bound up with his people, but with another people. It is in a language that is not the fruit of his own culture but of somebody else's culture. What sense could a non-Ukrainian have of the national unity of somebody else's forebears during times of oppression? Obviously, none of that would be what matters to a convert who is not of Ukrainian heritage.

Justin, however, does explain what matters more to him, though, and that helps me to understand. Because in his mind, the designation "Ukrainian Catholic" is not really wrapped up in Ukrainian ethnicity or heritage as much as it is in liturgical tradition and religious ethos.

Do what I did--dive in and make their family your own. If you moved to France, or Italy, or Poland, you'd have to make adjustments at whatever parish you attended there.

It's really not as stark as you probably imagine.

If anything, if you go to a Ruthenian Church, at least half of the parishioners will probably be current or former Roman Catholics there for various reasons such as yourself.

Go to almost any OCA church and you will find that most of the parishoners and probably even the priest are former "WASP's"

I do recognize that the Tradition I practice, is one that was formed in the Ukrainian people, and continues to live there. Stuart's point about living in a parish in France or Italy is a particularly good one. Some cultural traditions (like Advent-tide mini-celebrations [really pre-Christmas festivities]) didn't fare so well in my family's move East. Others (like Thanksgiving -- it falls during a fast period) were shoe-horned in. Western devotions (although none were purely ethnic) were replaced in my prayer rule by other things.

I still commemorate St. Patrick (I just stick him on the Byzantine Calendar -- although I imagine I'm in good company there), but I do it in Ukrainian Greek Catholic style. I was never particularly attached to May crownings or the feast of Corpus Christi, thus I find the various processions with icons to be as, and probably more inspiring. My icon corner may be more eclectic than the average member of the UGCC, but that isn't an issue. I'm happy to exchange First communion dresses and confirmation parties for the fact that my kids were fully initiated as infants, and now receive the mysteries even in the local Roman parish (my kids are 1 and 3 -- and unfortunately, at the moment, the nearest weekly Greek Catholic liturgy is 3.5 hours away). And of course there are a whole host of family traditions, most of which aren't so much ethnic as just the way things have always been done, which don't conflict with what I'm doing, so they've been kept. I guess while I kept some things that worked (much like the expatriate in France, Italy or Poland would do), other things got in the way of that Tradition I fell in love with -- so they got jettisoned.

Regardless, I don't see my church as being Ukrainian by accident of history -- it is fully Ukrainian by providence -- but it is much more than Ukrainian. While the Ukrainian can't be taken out (and I think shouldn't be diluted) there is plenty of room in here for people of other ethnicities. Who knows, maybe in 500 years there will be good cause to think about some areas of the diaspora going through an ecclesiastical restructuring (after all Ukraine used to be mission territory for Constantinople -- the church is supposed to spread and periodically restructure).

That's great. Yeah, I seem to be discovering more and more that there's much I like about Eastern Catholicism. Somehow the liturgy and spirituality really seem to speak to me and make sense to me. I always just imagined that I was impious and doomed because I was simply never able cultivate an appreciation for so many Roman Catholic devotions that my fellow Roman Catholics just love and swear by and can't get enough of. Stations of the Cross, the Rosary, the chaplet of this, and the novena to that, the First Fridays, Fatima...you name it...and that whole, "Bingo, I just got a partial indulgence! Bingo, just got another one," approach to prayer...or rather prayers...and the mechanization of the obtaining of "graces".

But in the East I'm beginning to discern that my "bad Catholic" attitude all this time was really just a need for something...different. Something less mechanical and less devotion-oriented and something more liturgical and more Christ-centered. Even the art speaks to me more. Icons have a chaste, other-worldly aspect to them that speaks to one of the divine in a way that sentimental plaster statues with tortured facial expressions and glass eyes gazing heavenward don't. Don't even get me started on the differences between the liturgical music.

Even so, I know what you mean about sort of marrying East and West in your approach. I think it's great that you have an icon corner. I have recently put up a small home altar with a few icons I recently picked up, along with some candles, an incense burner, my Bible, and my Roman Catholic "Christian Prayer" book (Divine Office). I have my rosary there, and now a Jesus Prayer rope, as well. I have a book with the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, and also, just yesterday, a prayer book by an Orthodox priest named John McGucken called "Prayer Book of the Early Christians" which, I have to say, is the best prayer book I've ever come across.

And so I find myself, in prayer, beginning to blend East with West. Sometimes, for example, I'll make the Sign of the Cross in the Western way, other times in the Eastern. Sometimes I'll recite Vespers or Compline in the Latin Rite, other times in the Byzantine. Sometimes I'll combine prayers from both in one. And my prayer is always more liturgical in spirit than devotional.

I pray to the Virgin Mary as such...as the Virgin Mother of God, the God-bearer, the "Theotokos" and I do it now without any guilt for not addressing her 15 different times under 15 different titles. I do not pray to "Our Lady of Loreto" and then to "Our Lady of Lourdes" and then to "Our Lady of Guadelupe" and then to "Our Lady of Victory" the way we Roman Catholics tend to do, as if she were umpteen different people and as if she didn't hear you as "Lady of Guadelupe" while you were talking to "Our Lady of Lourdes". That always struck me as such a strange thing about Catholic devotionalism. Now I don't worry about it. Mary is Mary. But if I recite "Orthodox" Compline, I might just as easily sing the Salve Regina afterwards as I would after Compline of the Roman Rite.

This blending of the satisfying approach to Christianity that I am discovering in the East married to the best of what I have been able to appreciate about Catholicism of the West is providing me with a much livelier and robust prayer life and spirituality than I could have previously imagined, and it also gives me a much more acute understanding of the need for authentic Christian unity. The divisions between the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church, considering how much we already have in common on a fundamental level and all that we have to share with each other, is just...sad.

Roman Interloper,

I know your mileage may end up looking very different from my own, but I thought I'd share that your post sounds very much like a place I was years ago, as I was beginning my journey East. I had an eclectic mixture of East and West in my prayer life -- after about 3 months I just began to migrate Eastward. By a few months later, the only "Western" things left were devotions to a few saints that were not specifically celebrated on the Byzantine Calendar -- I found the earlier eclectic phase to be too random, and centered on my whims and feelings, and not God. I needed something regular, and unchanging.

The important part in all this is, that you have a spiritual Father you can talk to about what is going on in your prayer life -- and that he give you concrete advice.

All the Best,

Justin

Hmm. Well, that's easier said than done. Finding a priest you trust your eternity with, that is.

Especially if that's your attitude!

May I suggest that you humble yourself before the Lord in prayer, to seek His will and ask His guidance? Pray with sincerity that God lead you to a spiritual father (what the West would call a spiritual director), and I have no doubt that your request will be honored.

Justin:

At the moment it seems comforting to have seen and realized that that sense of obligation, so to speak, to force myself to adopt and even be faithful to devotions that I could never seem to relate to, was an unnecessary burden all along.

Although I find myself at the moment sort of diving into things Eastern, I don't also find myself rejecting or turning away from my Roman Catholic heritage, altogether. Just those elements of Roman Catholicism that I never have been able to relate to. And I find myself filling in the void left by the abandonment of those practices using elements of prayer and devotion I am finding in the Eastern Church, which is nice.

Things are beginning to make more sense, and are beginning to seem more well-rounded. I find myself beholding the Church in a new way that seems healthier and more life-giving. I went to Mass this morning, for example, at a Carmelite monastery. Before Mass, however, I sat in the chapel and silently prayed Matins from an Orthodox prayer book. It seemed to harmonize.

I like the idea of incorporating the best of what I know of the Latin Church with the new things I am discovering that I like about the Eastern Church.

we do have a couple of Ruthenians at ours, though. (not enough on their own to support a church, though).

Having by the grace of God, talked a Mexican-American teenager out of buying an abortion in order to be happier, I met her mother. She was understandably worried about her daughter's licentious behaviours. So among other things, I suggested she "be sure and pray to the Virgin of Guadalupe for her."

To which she replied, "Oh, I could never do THAT. I always pray to the Virgin of San Juan. If I prayed to the Virgin of Guadalupe, the Virgin of San Juan might get jealous."

I swear, this really happened. I didn't make it up.

My two cents here:

I'm also struggling with the overwhelming ethnicity in our parish. And people there have been nothing but absolutely fantastic. They are welcoming and loving, but we can't escape the fact that their ethnic identity stands out over everything else. And I work with the catechism program in the parish which is hand in hand with their cultural heritage school. You cannot miss the fact that they are there first and foremost because of their culture. In fact, the church is only full in those days when faith and culture intersect, like Pascha and Christmas. I don't want to think less of the people there so I presume they happily attend RC parishes at other times of the year. And fact is, a lot of them come far away to attend, so they don't go there every week.

I'm not a Westerner. I in fact am an immigrant. And this is actually a bigger burden for me. I am already in a land that is foreign to me. Then I walk into a church on Sunday into a parish whose culture is even more foreign to me. So even for those who are Canadianized, our connection is still very little.

I want a church where I can connect. Because that is what the communion of saints is all about. If its just me and Jesus Christ, then I would just buy this "personal relationship with Jesus" thing that Evangelicals are so crazy about. I believe in community and I believe it is important. I can probably survive my situation, but I doubt my family can. I think if I stay where I am, I will have atheists for children.