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Re: Interesting Conference [Re: RussianCath] #383033 07/18/12 05:22 PM
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Paul B Offline
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I'm happy that we are on the same page that this is a friendly discussion. smile

Why the Rosary? Because that is what the people knew. If the Theotokos asked for the Jesus Prayer of Akathist, the local RC priest would have thrown them out of the Church (if he was aware of what they are).

Why is it that Jesus has appeared to some people with the nail wounds in his wrists....to others the wounds are in his hands.
Why is it that the Theotokos appears as a European blond, to others a Black, to others a Jew?

Why is it that to some people traditional, conservative practices speak to people...to others charismatic....to others monastic?

Why is it that some pray best with the Rosary...some with the Chotki, to others through Scripture, to others with Divine Office?

Even in the New Testament, Jesus appealed to different classes, the righteous (Joseph of Arimathea), the blind and crippled, common fishermen, the Roman Centurion, the Samaritan woman, etc.

General consensus is that God speaks to people in His own way, recognizing that He created them to be unique. He appeals to them in a familiar way, not holding to rigid standards.

Does this help to see things from a different perspective?

Re: Interesting Conference [Re: Paul B] #383060 07/19/12 01:43 PM
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sielos ilgesys Offline
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I find what you say to be very helpful in understanding that these apparitions can be regarded in both healthy and pathological ways. Thanks for your observations.

However, I remain perplexed by some of the sequelae of the 1917 apparitions. I am referring to:
- the 5 First Saturday devotion. What does it mean "to console the Immaculate Heart of Mary"? What possible consolation could the Theotokos need?
- the alleged insistence of the Mother of God to little Bl. Jacinta Marto that "more people go to hell for sins of the flesh than for any other reason". By that I suppose she meant sexual sins. That just doesn't jive with what I've been taught, which is the best way to go to hell is by being proud, haughty, hard-hearted and a spiteful, vindictive grudge-holder.
- and the implication that LOTSA people go to hell and the urgency that we make atonement for their sins. That we pray for the salvation of sinners makes sense as long as we include OURSELVES in that category.

So, as you see, I still have "issues" with Fatima.

Last edited by sielos ilgesys; 07/19/12 01:50 PM.
Re: Interesting Conference [Re: sielos ilgesys] #383062 07/19/12 02:04 PM
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desertman Offline
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Here's a video about various apparitions of the Theotokos to Orthodox Christians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnwJTGTmMDo

Re: Interesting Conference [Re: sielos ilgesys] #383074 07/19/12 06:24 PM
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sielos ilgesys Offline
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Consoling the Immaculate Heart of Mary? Huh? With as much unpleasantry and anxiety as I have on my plate just now; with the horrible civil war killing people right and left in Syria; with abortions consuming innocent babies and wounding all who participate in them, and so on and so forth...I find myself not merely praying to be consoled by the Theotokos. I find myself practically barkin' and hollerin' and whoopin' for her aid!

Trust me on this one: she's WAY beyond the need for consolation.

I bet a lot of readers of these posts feel the same way as I do.

Last edited by sielos ilgesys; 07/19/12 06:26 PM.
Re: Interesting Conference [Re: sielos ilgesys] #383077 07/19/12 06:53 PM
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Paul B Offline
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Originally Posted by sielos ilgesys
However, I remain perplexed by some of the sequelae of the 1917 apparitions. I am referring to:
- the 5 First Saturday devotion. What does it mean "to console the Immaculate Heart of Mary"? What possible consolation could the Theotokos need?


Put this in the 1917 context of the Mother of Christ being aware of the rise of atheism and the death and suffering which was forthcoming; the hatred directed toward her Son. Any Mother would plead for this to stop. The First Saturdays was a request for people to receive Communion on 5 consecutive first Saturdays at a time when Communion was infrequent. Also, this supplements the previously requested SEVEN First Friday Confessions in reparation for sins against the Sacred Heart of her Son. You see it is a humble and subservient request as five is less than seven. This is the way it was explained to me.

Originally Posted by sielos ilgesys
- the alleged insistence of the Mother of God to little Bl. Jacinta Marto that "more people go to hell for sins of the flesh than for any other reason". By that I suppose she meant sexual sins. That just doesn't jive with what I've been taught, which is the best way to go to hell is by being proud, haughty, hard-hearted and a spiteful, vindictive grudge-holder.


At first thought a conflict arises. But upon reflection doesn't lust, infidelity, satisfaction of one's appetite for more (not just sexual, but egotistical) arise in those who are driven by pride, haughtiness, hard-heartedness and thoughts of superiority? They go hand in hand.

Regardless, the prophecy of Fatima has been fulfilled; it is time to bring the message of prayer and sacrifice to a new level, addressing the issues that you mention in you subsequent post.

Re: Interesting Conference [Re: RussianCath] #383080 07/19/12 07:40 PM
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Erie Byz Offline
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Not to offend anyone, but this is why I don't put much stock in personal revelations and on that same note why they're not binding.

Re: Interesting Conference [Re: Erie Byz] #383082 07/19/12 08:05 PM
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Paul B Offline
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Subject: Re: Interesting Conference

Not to offend anyone, but this is why I don't put much stock in personal revelations and on that same note why they're not binding.

There is nothing wrong with that. However if the Church has approved of a vision it should not be rejected as defective. We owe it to one's spiritual welfare to seek explanation to reconcile doubts...or to leave it alone. I'm not saying that this thread fits that category, rather it started as questioning abuse by the proponents of Fatima.

The Church will always walk a fine line on this subject.

Thought for reflection: If Christ were to come again today, would people recognize Him? Would we follow Him or reject Him as the "work of the devil," or just plain ignore Him? Would there be acceptance or reject by the Pope, Patriarch and Bishops?

I suspect that we would differ little from people at the time of Jesus Christ.

Re: Interesting Conference [Re: Paul B] #383090 07/19/12 09:44 PM
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sielos ilgesys Offline
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What you say in your post makes sense to me and I am going to give it quite a bit of thought. I appreciate your input. Maybe my views are evolving.

However, it was said of the nuns in Port Royal - by the Church official sent there to evaluate their alleged infestation with Jansenism - thet "the nuns were as pure as angels and as proud as devils."

Re: Interesting Conference [Re: sielos ilgesys] #383096 07/19/12 10:58 PM
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Paul B Offline
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Originally Posted by sielos ilgesys
Maybe my views are evolving.



Ahhh, metanoia??? May I always be willing to see other's views. Life is strange....when young we seem to know all the answers....as we grow older we aren't even sure of the questions! (Speaking for myself.)

May God bless you many blessed years!

Re: Interesting Conference [Re: Roman Interloper] #383140 07/20/12 06:45 PM
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Peter J Offline
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Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Now, needless to say, it isn't the various messages of prayer and repentance that may subsist within these various phenomena that I don't accept (for what they are). Surely those are good messages that can be found throughout the Christian experience. But modern private apparitions never really sort of stop there, do they? They include predictions that sometimes come true and sometimes do not (Fatima contains predictions of events written down after the fact) as well as other messages that aren't necessarily so clear and comprehensible.


Well, sometimes they do "stop there" actually. Guadalupe, for example.

Re: Interesting Conference [Re: ajk] #383141 07/20/12 06:51 PM
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Peter J Offline
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Originally Posted by ajk
At most, I believe, the Catholic Church judges that an apparition is "worthy of belief" without affirming particular forms of devotion; see, for instance, this link:

Quote
According to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, the era of public revelation ended with the death of the last living Apostle. A Marian apparition, if deemed genuine by Church authority, is treated as private revelation that may emphasize some facet of the received public revelation for a specific purpose, but it can never add anything new to the deposit of faith. The Church will confirm an apparition as worthy of belief, but belief is never required by divine faith. The Holy See has officially confirmed the apparitions at Guadalupe, Saint-Étienne-le-Laus, Paris (Rue du Bac, Miraculous Medal), La Salette, Lourdes, Fátima, Portugal, Pontmain, Beauraing, and Banneux.


I'm a little surprised by that last sentence: I was under the impression that it was not the Holy See who issued those statements.

Re: Interesting Conference [Re: Peter J] #383142 07/20/12 07:07 PM
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You can read the Norms Regarding the Manner of Proceeding in the Discernment of Presumed Apparitions or Revelations.

While it is usually the local ordinary that judges such cases, there are cases when the Holy See can intervene. Furthermore, even when it does not intervene in the process of the judgment of the apparition or revelation, it may latter take action that confirms its approval, such as the confirmation of a liturgical feast related to the event, ordering the crowning an image related to it, a papal visit or allocution, etc.

Re: Interesting Conference [Re: JBenedict] #383159 07/21/12 01:03 AM
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Peter J Offline
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Thanks JBenedict. So does the statement

Quote
The Holy See has officially confirmed the apparitions at Guadalupe, Saint-Étienne-le-Laus, Paris (Rue du Bac, Miraculous Medal), La Salette, Lourdes, Fátima, Portugal, Pontmain, Beauraing, and Banneux.


mean that the Holy See intervened in those cases?

Re: Interesting Conference [Re: RussianCath] #383175 07/21/12 05:08 PM
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Paul B Offline
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Generally, I think most local bishops don't even want to be "bothered" by vision, apparitions, etc. The reasons:

Criticism both for and against
Cost of investigation
Time and resource limitations
Can't win situation
Don't care

If it is attracts a lot of attention and is ongoing and can't be ignored they mostly likely will pass the buck.

Put yourself in your bishop's shoes; if something happened in your eparchy/diocese, how would you go about it, with limited resources?

And if the local bishop doesn't approve a happening which continues to attract thousands of people it most likely will get bumped up.

Re: Interesting Conference [Re: RussianCath] #383180 07/22/12 12:41 AM
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Peter J:

I suppose I wouldn't classify Guadelupe as "modern" at this point, and you're right, Guadelupe is quite unlike the "modern" apparitions of which I speak. If Guadelupe is genuine, it was just a matter of the Virgin Mary rather quietly appearing in a gentle way that involved no predictions of calamity, no secrets, no urgent requests to be transmitted to the Pope in Rome, the Catholic world didn't go bonkers over it, &c. In fact the bishop to whom Juan Diego presented the tilma to doesn't even reference the incident in his memoirs.

The last point leads me to wonder about it, but not to dismiss it. In any event, to me, Guadelupe is the way I would imagine the Blessed Virgin to appear if she were to appear. Quietly, lovingly, gently, placidly.

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