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Latins in Ukraine #383360 07/25/12 07:31 PM
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rome1453 Offline OP
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Hi. I am not trying to cause flame wars, but I was wondering why there are Roman Catholics in Ukraine? I actually know why, but I thought all the people there were eastern Christian...

It is odd that there is a separate hierarchy in Ukraine for the RCs, but in the US in the last century the eastern Christians were under RC bishops.

John

Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: rome1453] #383361 07/25/12 08:41 PM
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JBenedict Offline
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Someone will be along with better info, but it looks like the Archdiocese of Lviv was erected (1412) before the Union of Brest (1595).

Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: rome1453] #383362 07/25/12 08:53 PM
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theophan Offline
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Quote
Hi. I am not trying to cause flame wars, but I was wondering why there are Roman Catholics in Ukraine? I actually know why, but I thought all the people there were eastern Christian...

It is odd that there is a separate hierarchy in Ukraine for the RCs, but in the US in the last century the eastern Christians were under RC bishops.

John


Sbdn John:

Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

I'm sure the reason has to do with the historic border and government shifts in that region, but I'd like to hear your take on it.

The short answer about the hierarchy IMHO--it's the colonial attitude/mentality: the superiority of the Western/Latin mentality, ritual, spirituality, etc. Can you imagine what the Latins in Ukraine would be doing if they were placed under the UGCC? You'd be able to hear the screaming in outer space. After all, isn't the Latin experience and expression of the Faith handed to us through the ages superior to all other expressions and experiences?

I am Latin. I love and respect the Eastern Churches. I am ashamed, frustrated, angered--the whole spectrum of negative emotions--when I sit and think about these injustices. And this mindset--it's alive and well everywhere I turn.

Bob

Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: rome1453] #383366 07/25/12 10:00 PM
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There have been Poles, Lithuanians and Germans in Ukraine for quite some time. They deserve, I think, to worship within their own tradition just as we do. There is an RC heirarchy in Russia for the same reason.

Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: Rybak] #383371 07/25/12 11:10 PM
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theophan Offline
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Rybak:

Christ is in our midst!!

I think you miss Sbdn John's point. Why, if Eastern Catholics must be under a Latin bishop in the United States thought they can worship in theri own tradition, are not Latin Catholics under an Eastern bishop within the canonical territory of an Eastern Catholic Church? No one is suggesting that the Latins in Ukraine should be forced into the Byzantine praxis of the area. Rybak is comparing the relative treatment of Catholics in similar situations.

Bob

Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: rome1453] #383375 07/25/12 11:25 PM
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Peter J Offline
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This is an issue that bothers me as well. Not just about Ukraine but about canonical territory in general: it should be symmetric.

Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: Rybak] #383378 07/26/12 02:43 AM
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sielos ilgesys Offline
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There is at least one Lithuanian on this forum with Bielorussian and/or Ukrainian ancestors in his woodpile (to say nothing of his Litvak ancestors) who's a Greek Catholic. Gosh, who could THAT be?

Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: theophan] #383417 07/26/12 05:02 PM
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Roman Interloper Offline
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Originally Posted by theophan
Rybak:

Christ is in our midst!!

I think you miss Sbdn John's point. Why, if Eastern Catholics must be under a Latin bishop in the United States thought they can worship in theri own tradition, are not Latin Catholics under an Eastern bishop within the canonical territory of an Eastern Catholic Church?


Pardon my bewilderment at this concern. Are Eastern Catholics in the United States subject to Latin Church bishops? The Ukrainian Catholics in this country, I know, have their own hierarchy. Ukrainian Catholics where I live aren't subject to the Roman Catholic bishop of my diocese in Upstate New York, but rather fall under the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Eparchy of Stamford, CT. Am I misunderstanding something?

Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: rome1453] #383421 07/26/12 06:38 PM
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Paul B Offline
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I, like Roman Interloper, don't understand, either. Do you consider it an injustice that ethnic, and always Western since conversion to Christianity, RC's SHOULDN"T have their own Bishops?

Their dioceses have existed since before the Union. Some may have at one time been Eastern, but I believe this is not nearly the norm. Without doing any research, as I recall, the Polish and Lithuanian kingdoms were powerful during the late Middle Ages.

Surely, vindictiveness isn't in order here.

More info, please.


S'nami Boh!

Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: Roman Interloper] #383422 07/26/12 06:50 PM
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There are some Eastern Catholics, e.g. Russians, Italo-Albanians, who are without a hierarchy in the U.S. and are therefore subject to the local Latin Bishop.

This doesn't happen with Latins in Ukraine, because, as I pointed out above, the Latin hierarchy in Ukraine was founded at a time before the Union of Brest and the Eastern Christians there were not at the time in Communion with the Holy See. The delicacy of the religious-political situation over the intervening centuries has probably made wholesale reordering of the situation (e.g. making the Latin dioceses personal) unfeasible/undesirable.

It doesn't happen with Latins in Russia for, among other reasons, the Russian Catholic Hierarchy is vacant.

According to Wikipedia at least, it does happen in Italy, where there are some Latin parishes within the territory of the Italo-Albanian dioceses that are governed by them.

Last edited by JBenedict; 07/26/12 06:51 PM. Reason: punctuation
Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: rome1453] #383433 07/27/12 01:13 AM
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Latin Catholic Offline
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It is not odd that there is a separate hierarchy for Latins in Ukraine, because there are maybe 800,000 Latin Catholics in Ukraine. They are mostly of Polish origin, but also some Hungarians in Transcarpathia.

It is also a fact that most of the current Eastern Catholic eparchies in the United States were established during the last century, i.e. the 20th century, so that Eastern Catholics were in fact no longer under Latin bishops.

The Latin archdiocese of Lviv dates back to the 15th century and in fact Lviv (Lwów in Polish) had a Polish-majority population until the Second World War, when Poles were ethnically cleansed by Stalin (see Antony Beevor, The Second World War[/i], p. 711). I might add that there was also an Armenian Catholic archeparchy of Lviv from the 17th century until the Second World War, now sadly defunct.

The Latin hierarchy in Ukraine has a long history and serves the needs of the local Latin Catholics, many of Polish origin. Before anyone questions this presence, they should consider the fact that the Polish Pope Bl. John Paul II established several Eastern Catholic eparchies in historically Latin Catholic countries.

Also, it is not logical to claim that Eastern Catholics in the United States should have their own bishops if one thinks that Latin Catholics in Ukraine shouldn't have the same rights.

In the Catholic Church today, regardless of the sins of the past, everyone is entitled to pastoral care according to his own liturgical tradition, whether Latin or Eastern, including priests or bishops of his own Church [i]sui iuris. And that is, I believe, as it should be.

Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: rome1453] #383434 07/27/12 02:27 AM
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Do Ukrainian Bishops complain to the Patriarch and his Holy Synod's Occidental Office about the presence of celibate diocesan clergy - does the Ukrainian Church's Occidental Congregation then forward the situation to the Latin Curia to correct the potential scandal it could cause the Ukrainian faithful in their homeland?

Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: Michael_Thoma] #383440 07/27/12 10:50 AM
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The situation in Italy is unusual, as the 3 Byzantine juristictions actually have land border with their Latin neighbouring diocese. If you leave the Monastery at Grottaferrata for example you cross over from the Exarchate into the Diocese of Frascati. Mass celebrated within the tiny Exarchate is done commemorating the Exarch who is the Abbot of the monastery and Byzantine Div. Liturgy celebrated away from the monastery in the the local area say, commemorates the Bshop of Frascati whose diocese they are in at the time.

cool

Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: Roman Interloper] #383650 08/01/12 04:22 AM
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dochawk Offline
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so, are these Latin bishops in the Ukraine appointed by the Ukranian hierarchy, or from Italy?


hawk

Re: Latins in Ukraine [Re: dochawk] #383653 08/01/12 12:16 PM
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Pavel Ivanovich Offline
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I suspect the the Conference of Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church in Ukraine advise the Holy see just as Latin bishops do everywhere if there is a vacancy. Each diocese must maintain a short list of possible maybes, just in case the See is vacant, that has to be regularly updated.

cool

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