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Let me start by saying I'm no great fan of feminist punk-rockers. However, when Church leaders are "in bed" with evil and dictatorial governments, they are really inviting this sort of thing. As I see it, the protesters are primarily (if not exclusively) concerned with the fact that the leaders of the ROC have brought it into such close alliance with the Putin regime that anything Putin does--however evil--automatically has their endorsement.

Originally Posted by EasternRomioi3
Anyone who would rush into any religious building for any reason and interrupt any sort of gathering simple lacks manners and even a shred of decency.
Oooh, this description sounds eerily like Our Lord's cleansing of the Temple.


Last edited by Epiphanius; 08/20/12 08:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by Rybak
The idea that this group of women are holy fools defies logic.

I think Stuart is speaking of their message in this instance, not their personal lives.

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Personally, I think that we, as Americans, should get off our high horse and stop judging the way other countries govern themselves...

After all, from a moral standpoint, we have become about as sinful and enabling of all sorts of moral sin, blasphemy, and disgrace as any country can possibly get--having exported our immorality through Hollywood and the music industry to the rest of the world.

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Personally, I think that we, as Americans, should get off our high horse and stop judging the way other countries govern themselves...

What happens in Moscow stays in Moscow?

What happens in Beijiing stays in Beijing?

What happens in Berlin stays in Berlin?

Am I my brother's keeper?

Who is my neighbor?

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First take out the log in your own eye, just not lest ye be judged, etc.

As long as the criticism applies equally, everywhere, it is important to be able to criticize.

Moscow should have just called them domestic terrorists with Islamist ties, then we would all sagely nod our head and move on to the next bit of news.

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Moscow should have just called them domestic terrorists with Islamist ties, then we would all sagely nod our head and move on to the next bit of news.

That's arrant nonsense, and you know it. Among other things, Russia's actions in Chechnya have brutally indiscriminate, and were justified by terrorist actions against Russian citizens staged by FSB agents provocateurs. To the Putin regime, "domestic terrorist" has the same connotation that "Bandarista" had to Stalin's thugs after World War II.

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The truth behind this blasphemous act.

http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1345323773.html


Alexandr

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Originally Posted by StuartK
That's arrant nonsense, and you know it. Among other things, Russia's actions in Chechnya have brutally indiscriminate, and were justified by terrorist actions against Russian citizens staged by FSB agents provocateurs. To the Putin regime, "domestic terrorist" has the same connotation that "Bandarista" had to Stalin's thugs after World War II.

My point was that it would play much better to American/international audiences, who have no problem with brutality as long as it's properly explained away with sinister Islamist undertones.

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Great article that explains what the liberal western media didn't emphasize, or even mention.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4212934.html

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Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Originally Posted by Rybak
The idea that this group of women are holy fools defies logic.

I think Stuart is speaking of their message in this instance, not their personal lives.

I have had to think for a while about all the arguments on this board. Several things come to mind, some of which may actually be true:

1. Holy Fools love Christ, therefore, even in the message they deliver by their lives, they do not resort to obscenity, vile behavior, and descration of holy places. All the Holy Fools I read about in literature were homeless wanderers, not Church desecrators.

2. To compare these women to Christ cleansing the Temple is a bad joke at best, it borders on blasphemous at worst. Christ did not use obscenity, his cleansing had an obtainable objective, even as God in the Flesh He did not enter the holy area, He did not use satanic music, and he did not flash His private parts (my understanding is that the girls did).

3. We don't know what is going on in Russia with the government. We don't know Putin's objectives, however, we do know that he has opposed any and all "Gay Pride" parades, claiming that they would bring down the wrath of God upon Russia (we Americans should take heed).

4. Where does it say that the Church should not be working with the government? As a Theocratic Monarchialist, I find Democracy repulsive. Mob rule, especially when that mob is Socialists, Atheists, Communists (a fitting description of our governance in this country, along with the media) is not a good working model of political rulership. God has every claim to the governance of countries through the unified working of Church and State together (Romans 13: 1-5). I think that far too many of the posters on this board have been hoodwinked by the "American Experiment" which is in reality a failed example of Protestant Calvinism.

5. I would not give them jail, as the Sacred Scriptures nowhere call for such a punishment. I would mandate them to go to Church for the next five years in hopes that the Holy Spirit would bring the Gospel to their hearts.

Again....just my .02.

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Tim Kelleher writing at First Things [firstthings.com] this morning:

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What in God’s name are you doing?

With deference, this question is directed to the President of The Russian Federation, and more pointedly, to his ecclesial counterpart, the Patriarch of Moscow.

Vladimir Putin apparently has his appeal amongst the fairer sex, Patriarch Kirill, presumably less so. Yet, in tandem, they managed to incite—or depending on your view—incur a riot. It turned out to be a Pussy Riot.

In any case, a resultant skirmish has since grown to surprising scale, gained international attention, and may yet prove to be a grave miscalculation on the part of the two leaders.

In March, activist group, Pussy Riot, staged a decidedly inelegant “protest” inside one of Orthodoxy’s highest profile shrines—a stunt that, in terms of physical threat, posed less of one than a gaggle of pigeons flying inadvertently into the same space.

The space in question was Christ the Savior Cathedral, seat of the Russian Church, located in intimate proximity to the Kremlin. And Pussy Riot’s presence there was anything but inadvertent.

Three of the protestors were later arrested and spent the next five and a half months in jail awaiting a trial that ended a week ago. This past Friday, they were found guilty and sentenced to two years in prison.

The charges, delivered in a 2,800 page bale, sound eccentric to Western ears—hooliganism being the chief complaint—and speak of offenses against the sensibilities of religious believers as well as the integrity of the social order.

For their part, the activists have maintained their intent was never to insult the Church, or the state, but to add a sense of urgency to the concern that the relationship between the two is growing increasingly unseemly. It’s hardly an extremist view, one shared by a wide range of people—most of who don’t wear balaclavas or jump around in tights when expressing it. One, Gary Kasparov, was arrested outside the courthouse while protesting Friday’s verdict.

Initially, Patriach Kirill refrained from weighing in. When he finally did, he weighed in heavy—painting the protestors as agents of the diabolical and calling for the harshest consequences.

Defenders of Kirill are quick to claim that Western critics take a simplistic approach to a social reality we don’t understand and are not competent to judge. No doubt, there’s some truth in that. The catastrophe of the Soviet persecution of religion, for example, placed church leaders who survived, in often-impossible predicaments, forcing compromises they felt obliged to accept, and over which they never ceased to agonize. Whereas developments in the West led to separation of church and state as the default position of the contemporary polis, the East has traveled a different path.

Perhaps nowhere is this more dramatically illustrated than in Russia, heir of Kievan-Rus, where pre-schism Christianity was embraced in its Eastern form by Prince Vladimir at the close of the 10th century, and quickly “bestowed” upon his subjects. While only Constantine may have played a larger role in fusing cross and crown, it is Vladimir’s legacy that is being felt most palpably in our own day—and in places like a Moscow courthouse last week.

Yet, the Church is called to be the Church—royal, priestly and prophetic—dwelling in graced tension with any and every temporal institution. To my knowledge, the Church has never viewed itself as a fortress in need of protecting. Rather, especially in the East, it is the image of the hospital—a place of forgiveness and healing—that is prescriptive.

The satisfaction of humbling one’s opponents is no match for the evangelical power of forgiving them. Thus, Patriarch Kirill’s demand for severity seems to strengthen the perception given voice by Pussy Riot, that the Church is able, willing, and eager to supply spiritual muscle in the cause of eliminating opposition to Mr. Putin. In so doing, it only helps enlarge popular acceptance of the most negative stereotypes of Christianity in general, and Orthodoxy in particular.

The defendants faced a maximum of seven years for their hooliganism. They received two—an outcome hinted at by President Putin during a brief trip to London during the Olympics.

There, in calling for “leniency,” he put some distance between himself and a swelling chorus of international critics. He may have also put a little space between himself and the Patriarch, leaving Kirill the singular face of the reactionary element.

Last Friday, many in Russia, and millions beyond, hoped to witness a tangible sign of a loving father’s forgiveness of three of his young daughters. It didn’t happen.

Tim Kelleher is a television and film writer, actor, and director.

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Blasphemy in an Orthodox Church in Russia = Free speech.

Leaving bacon in a New York City park where Muslims intend to pray = Hate Crime


http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/08...e-after-bacon-found-at-s-i-ramadan-site/


Thank God for Patriarch +Kirill and President Putin and their standing up for decency and all that is good in the face of upside down Western thinking.

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StuartK, I must ask, what do you mean by "A good example of the soft bigotry of low expectations. "They're just Russians--this is what they deserve".

Also a startling example of historical illiteracy, but I've given up on that--few people come up to my standards these days."

I'm just curious as what you mean by the context of that. Also, I must ask, are you accusing me of historical illiteracy?

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Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Thank God for Patriarch +Kirill and President Putin and their standing up for decency and all that is good in the face of upside down Western thinking.

Amen!

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I ask Americans what would be the reaction if this type of thing took place at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at Arlington National Cemetery, probably one of the few places Americans consider sacred.

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