Newest Members
emily13, Vox Populi, Social_research, JGlennCee, bben15, Nadir5, Claisen, AgiosAnthrwpos, marti58, dia Christon salos, anticlimacus, SocietyOfStsP&A, Robert Pauly, RichE, Gene
4756 Registered Users
Who's Online
7 registered (Sbdn. John, emily13, Ven1, Slavophile, Peter J, DogoCanario, 1 invisible), 184 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Icon of Our Lady Of Fatima
Bishop Nicholas Samra & Deacon Candidates Visit OLPH, 6/2/13
Great and Holy Week Our Lady of Fatima SF
Blessing of Fr. Serge Keleher's tombstone. April 7, 2013
Sts. Cyril and Methodius Byzantine Catholic Church
Forum Stats
4756 Members
26 Forums
31785 Topics
388594 Posts

Max Online: 2716 @ 06/07/12 04:10 PM
Page 12 of 16 < 1 2 ... 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 >
Topic Options
#385447 - 08/28/12 02:07 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: ConstantineTG]
StuartK Offline
Member

Registered: 11/09/01
Posts: 6979
Loc: Falls Church, VA
Quote:
Stuart, Do you hate the Orthodox?

Judging from what others say about me, it would appear I hate everybody. Just call me Timon of Athens.

Top
#385449 - 08/28/12 02:22 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: IAlmisry]
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 2107
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: IAlmisry
Although His Beatitude Patriarch Ignatius IV is Peter and his successor in his apostolic see, we do have recourse to higher authority when he, or his/our Holy Synod or any one of his/our bishops err, as their judgements are subject to revison and appeal to superior authority. Last I noticed/checked, i.e. last Sunday, the situatuion was status quo ante that disgraceful nonsense, rather papal (in the Pastor Aeternus, not Alexandrine, sense) and certainly foreign to Orthodox ecclesiology.

Can you quote those "official representatives of the MP"? And can you explain what the Patriarch of Moscow says means more to you than your supreme pontiff, who refers to your Major-Archbishop Sviatoslav as Major-Archbishop?
How can your Ignatius IV be Peter when he was appointed by your then Patriarch of all the known Inhabited Worlds, over the native Prince Patriarch Ignatius (for having rejected Chalcedon and the aspersions of the Imperial Court, which the Byzantine Churches supported to gain territory moneys and property from the native Semitic Christian faithful), and the pre-'Patriarch of all the known Inhabited Worlds' appointed Peter - Patriarch of the city of Antioch, of Cilicia, Syria, Iberia, Arabia Mesopotamia, Pentapolis, Ethiopia, of all of Egypt and the entire East, Father of Fathers, Pastor of Pastors, Bishop of Bishops, the Thirteenth of The Holy Apostles - who's unbroken direct successor today is named Gregorios III - accepting Communion with the then Roman Chief Bridge-Builder and High Priest?

Top
#385451 - 08/28/12 02:40 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: StuartK]
Carson Daniel Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/01
Posts: 5783
Loc: Walled Lake, Mi
Originally Posted By: StuartK
Quote:
Stuart, Do you hate the Orthodox?

Judging from what others say about me, it would appear I hate everybody. Just call me Timon of Athens.


I do enjoy humor. It makes a person more human. I love Orthodoxy but do not always love the way some Orthodox talk and act toward Eastern Catholics. Some day we shall be one. One thousand years is surely long enough.

Top
#385452 - 08/28/12 02:43 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: Michael_Thoma]
Peter J Online   content
Member

Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 889
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted By: Peter J
Originally Posted By: StuartK
I'm with those who believe the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church should take a play out of the Orthodox book and "just do it".


Side question: is there such a word as "Orthodozation"? Or, more to the point, if it doesn't exist should we invent it?

Now back to ...
There is Byzantinization / Constantiopolization - which is what occurred when the Semitic Churches rejected Chalcedon.


Indeed, and we've also used "Easternization", "Romanization", and "Melkitization". But I'm not sure any of these are considered "real" words -- except of course for "Latinization" (and "de-Latinization").

Top
#385453 - 08/28/12 02:44 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: StuartK]
Peter J Online   content
Member

Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 889
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: StuartK
Quote:
Stuart, Do you hate the Orthodox?

Judging from what others say about me, it would appear I hate everybody. Just call me Timon of Athens.


As long as I don't have to be Pumba.

Top
#385465 - 08/28/12 05:27 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: StuartK]
ConstantineTG Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 308
Loc: At the Eastern Crossroads
Originally Posted By: StuartK
I'm with those who believe the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church should take a play out of the Orthodox book and "just do it". As Father Taft suggested some time back, the normal manner in which a patriarchate is elevated in the Orthodox communion is for a particular Church to announce unilaterally its patriarchal status. Some Orthodox Churches welcome the new patriarchate, others shun it, but eventually (after half a century or so) they all accept the new status quo.

The UGCC should, therefore, formally announce that it is now the Greek Catholic Patriarchal Church of Kyiv, led by His Beatitude Patriarch Sviatoslav. It should change its letterhead and its website to reflect its new status, and it should stop accepting mail addressed to the "Major Archbishop of Kyiv-Halich": "Returned to Sender--No Such Person at This Address. It should cease answering phone calls requesting the Major Archbishop. It should not respond to e-mails or tweets so addressed, either. The Orthodox will howl. Rome will howl. In the end, all will accede because that's just how life is. There comes a time in the life of a Church when it has risen to a level of prominence which justifies patriarchal status. If other Churches, for political reasons, refuse to recognize this, then that Church is within its rights to claim what is its own.


His Beatitude will be here this weekend, I will let him know your thoughts biggrin

Seriously though, everyone within the UGCC do refer to him as the Patriarch. In our Liturgies he is commemorated as the Patriarch. What more can we do? We announce the visit as the visit of the Patriarch, but the RC-run BC Catholic has covered the event as a visity by the Major Archbishop.

Top
#385468 - 08/28/12 06:41 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: ConstantineTG]
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 7403
Loc: Kansas/UGCC
Quote:
Can you quote those "official representatives of the MP"?

Archbishop Alexander, upon the visit of Patriarch Sviatoslav to the ailing MP Metropolitan of Kyiv, among others.

Quote:
And can you explain what the Patriarch of Moscow says means more to you than your supreme pontiff, who refers to your Major-Archbishop Sviatoslav as Major-Archbishop?

I didn't say that. But the "Supreme Pontiff" is free to call our Patriarch what he wills.

Top
#385473 - 08/28/12 07:16 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: Diak]
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 7403
Loc: Kansas/UGCC
But I do know the Pope certainly isn't calling +Sviatoslav "Auxiliary".

Top
#385474 - 08/28/12 07:29 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: ConstantineTG]
Peter J Online   content
Member

Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 889
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: ConstantineTG
Seriously though, everyone within the UGCC do refer to him as the Patriarch. In our Liturgies he is commemorated as the Patriarch. What more can we do?


Something binding on the entire Catholic Communion.

Top
#385476 - 08/28/12 08:31 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: Peter J]
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 7403
Loc: Kansas/UGCC
Quote:
Something binding on the entire Catholic Communion.

Constantine's question/answer was "what more can WE do". Since communion with Rome is not injured, as he said, we do nothing except what we are doing, and that is the particular realization of +Sviatoslav as our Patriarch. Rome never approved Jerusalem, Constantinople, Antioch or Alexandria to be raised to the status of Patriarchates, each continued in the growth and development of each particular church until it was recognized within that particular Church.

I'm not sure what you mean "binding on the entire Catholic Communion". Generally that specifically refers to dogmatic issues requiring the intervention of Rome, not discliplinary matters of title.

Top
#385478 - 08/28/12 08:41 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: Peter J]
IAlmisry Offline
Member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 774
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: Peter J
Originally Posted By: ConstantineTG
Seriously though, everyone within the UGCC do refer to him as the Patriarch. In our Liturgies he is commemorated as the Patriarch. What more can we do?


Something binding on the entire Catholic Communion.

According to their beliefs, that is beyond their compentance, authority and power.

Top
#385479 - 08/28/12 08:55 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: IAlmisry]
Diak Offline
Member

Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 7403
Loc: Kansas/UGCC
Quote:
According to their beliefs, that is beyond their compentance, authority and power.


Our "beliefs" are contained in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.

Top
#385480 - 08/28/12 09:13 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: Diak]
ConstantineTG Offline
Member

Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 308
Loc: At the Eastern Crossroads
Originally Posted By: Diak
Quote:
Something binding on the entire Catholic Communion.

Constantine's question/answer was "what more can WE do". Since communion with Rome is not injured, as he said, we do nothing except what we are doing, and that is the particular realization of +Sviatoslav as our Patriarch. Rome never approved Jerusalem, Constantinople, Antioch or Alexandria to be raised to the status of Patriarchates, each continued in the growth and development of each particular church until it was recognized within that particular Church.

I'm not sure what you mean "binding on the entire Catholic Communion". Generally that specifically refers to dogmatic issues requiring the intervention of Rome, not discliplinary matters of title.


Something binding on the entire Catholic Communion would be a decree from the Pope. I wonder, has there been any concelebrations with other Catholic Patriarchs in recent times? Was the Patriarch of the Ukrainian Church commemorated as such by other Eastern hierarchs?

Top
#385482 - 08/28/12 09:32 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: ConstantineTG]
Michael_Thoma Offline
Member

Registered: 07/10/05
Posts: 2107
Loc: Chicago
The Ukrainian Patriarch would not be commemorated by others unless he was attending or celebrating. I have witnessed Patriarch Sviatoslav commemorated at St. Nicholas Cathedral in Chicago, with Bishop Mar Jacob Angadiath, Bishop John Michael Botean, Bishop Nicholas Samra, Cardinal Francis George, and others - no one batted an eye or objected, or offered correction. In fact, HE Cardinal George referred to HB as Patriarch in his homily.

Top
#385489 - 08/28/12 11:19 PM Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? [Re: IAlmisry]
Peter J Online   content
Member

Registered: 02/21/05
Posts: 889
Loc: New England
Originally Posted By: IAlmisry
Originally Posted By: Peter J
Originally Posted By: ConstantineTG
Seriously though, everyone within the UGCC do refer to him as the Patriarch. In our Liturgies he is commemorated as the Patriarch. What more can we do?


Something binding on the entire Catholic Communion.

According to their beliefs, that is beyond their compentance, authority and power.


Maybe so. In any case, my answer to Constantine's question wasn't meant as a serious proposal.

Top
Page 12 of 16 < 1 2 ... 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 >



Moderator:  Alice, Father Deacon Ed, theophan 

The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. Contents copyright - 1996-2013. All rights reserved.