www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Death of Mary

I was on a popular Catholic apologetics site (no big mystery which one that was) and I was suspended for the wierdest thing.

We were having a discussion on the IC, and a Latin Catholic asserted that Mary did not die, that Mary received the Grace of Immortality at her IC, that those who said otherwise were "speaking out of place," and that "no one speaks about her death." I responded that Mary did die, affirmed that the dogma of the IC makes no such statement, that his statement was very condescending to non-Latin Catholics, and that the old Catholic Encyclopedia and the old Baltimore Catechism explicitly describes the Assumption as the taking up of Mary body and soul to heaven after her DEATH. I also provided a point-by-point challenge to his theoretical rationale for belief in the immortality of the Theotokos.

Next thing you know, I was suspended and all my posts were deleted.

I never knew how mportant this novelty that Mary did not die is to some Latin Catholics. Obviously that other website has an agenda to promote it and does not tolerate anyone giving any good arguments for the belief that Mary did die.

I'd never felt like a second-class Catholic before until now. Needless to say, I will no longer post on that other website, (don't worry, I won't burden you guys with my presence that much ).

Blessings

I enjoy your posts. The more the merrier, my friend. Your thoughts on and knowledge of the Oriental Churches (both Catholic and Orthodox) add much here.

Nelson

On the last day of the year how good to see your post. I think your friends on the site that you cited need to read Munificentissimus Deus a little more carefully. Pope Pius XII is at pains to explain that the Theotokos, like her son did die. Like her Son, she did not undergo corruption. Death is the completion of ones life. Perhaps they misconstrue the phrase, "after the completion of her earthly life she was taken up body and soul", to mean she did not die. Since you've been stricken from their midst, it's hard to inform them otherwise. Oh, well. Happy New Year!

Well, one things that needs to be realized is that all Catholics and Orthodox are equal in union with beliefs in this, just expressed in different traditions, of course. Especially when it comes to the mother of Our Divine Lord, there can be some tricky stories in Scripture, to be sure. A lot to think about, and could be confusing... We have your back in this, nothing diplomatic in beliefs with this, but...I'm sure that there'll no doubt be common ground on what really happened soon enough.

I wonder how "popular" it really is, anymore. I suspect that just about any rational person who has ever participated on that forum has been driven away from it either by choice or by force for one reason or another. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that there are more banned users than active ones at this point. The moderation staff are clearly agenda driven, and to a degree seem to have coined something of their very own version of Catholicism which is to the Catholic Church approximately what the Tea Party is to the GOP (a sort of blind, somewhat shallow, heavily pietistic, and rather mindless conservatism...a sort of "Stepford Catholicism" if I may so express myself).

There exists a sort of "Magisterium of Lay Apologists" these days who to me seem to often come dangerously close to judging the orthodoxy of the rest of us by how closely another Catholic adheres to this "neo-con" take on Catholicism that they have manufactured amongst themselves. There is a small group of them who interview each other, co-host radio shows with one another, and review and foreword each others' books. This...little cabal (forgive me)...seem to have made up their mind that they are right and that you, if you disagree with them (or even question them), are suspect.

If you think the treatment one receives on the website is bad, try respectfully differing with one of them on their also "popular" call-in show on the radio. Many of the callers seem to be (I say seem to be, I accuse them outright of nothing) let through simply in order to parrot the hosts' opinions regarding pet issues. For example, once a week you'll hear a caller say "I am a long-time listener and I just love your show...my question is, are Eucharistic Ministers allowed to bless children? I ask because at my parish..."

Now, if this caller had been a long-time listener who just loves the show, he or she would have heard the answer to that question ad nauseam already, as I have. That's just one example, of course. Pick any "popular" liturgical abuse that rankles these "neo-con" Catholic apologists and a "long-time listener who loves your show" is sure to ask about it at least once in the course of any given week.

In my opinion, the website in question is poison.

Marduk,

Welcome home, my brother.

Roman Interloper,

Well-said!

Many years,

Neil

"Magisterium of Lay Apologists" is an excellent term. I have noticed that these people are overwhelmingly Protestant converts. The Orthodox have their own group of these people particularly in the Antiochian Church. They use the techniques of fundamentalist Protestants, particularly narrow and aggressive interpretations of the bible and an extreme command of chapter and verse to subdue anyone who questions them. Like many converts they are want to prove to themselves and others that they have made the correct choice consequently they are the most Catholic or the most Orthodox, at least from their perspective.

In the Orthodox churches this seems to lead to a strong stream of anti-Catholic attitudes. In the RC this leads to the same anti-Catholicism but these Catholics are the ones who do not accept their narrow belief set.

As for the specific question of the death of Mary, this would seem to be related to the whole group of people who believe that Mary is equal to Jesus in the redemption of the world. Having once been very active in one of the Marianist movements I am well aware of the private beliefs that were never to be revealed to anyone outside the movement.

Either that or they just try to make the other guy look like a jerk when they find themselves unable to answer his question or to refute his point. Their agenda seems to be to win quick, petty victories through bullying or laconic retorts rather than to seriously tackle honest questions with an honest exploration of any given subject in question.

Example question: "Why do Catholics consider the Rosary to be the 'most powerful weapon' against Satan? How could that possibly be so? What about the liturgy, for example, or the sacraments, or an exorcism?"

Example apologist answer: "Well, caller, the Rosary, as we all know, was given to us by Our Lady who told us so. Are you questioning the Mother of God, not to mention Pope John Paul the Great who tirelessly promoted the Rosary? I'm not so willing to belittle the wishes of Our Lady and the wisdom of beatified popes as you seem to be, but thank you for your call. On to Jeff in Pasadena, California who has a question about Eucharistic Ministers..."

Obviously I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek but that example isn't altogether wide of the mark. They are frequently curt and rude to callers or posters who challenge them, and they are often quick to defend popular Catholic legends as if they were historical truths.

I'm not sure how one goes about obtaining the position of "apologist" but I think the hierarchy would do well to advise the faithful that these guys are not the official spokesmen of the Catholic religion that they present themselves to be, and that their answers should not necessarily be regarded as the last word on any given topic.

Could someone please post whatever website is being spoke about in this thread? I am assuming that it is catholic.com, but if a site is going to be called "poison", it should be mentioned by name, along with the many reasons for staying away from it.

It happened on Catholic Answers Forum. I was a participant in the same thread, and I can attest that Marduk was treated unfairly, and I say this as someone who disagrees with him more often than not. As to whether CAF can fairly be called poison, you'll just have to decide for yourself.

Hi mardukm, I just saw that you had been suspended on CAF and was hoping you'd post about it on one of the other fora we're both on! Good for you; take it as a badge of honor!

Hmmm...this statue of the Blessed Mother is located in the Roman Catholic Church of the Dormition in Gethsemene. http://www.sacred-destinations.com/israel/jerusalem-dormition-abbey.htm Looks like she has died. Correct? It IS in the tradition of the Catholic Church that she died first. This shrine in the Holy Land testifies to this.

[Linked Image]

Ray

Both ByzCath and OC.net have benefited in the past and swelled their rsnks as a consequence of the polemicized and narrow viewpoints and heavy-handedness of the forum in question towards Eastern Christians. There are more than a few members here - myself included - who have had issues with CAF and the 'lay apologist' genre (Catholic or Orthodox and at CAF or elsewhere) is a phenomenon that causes my teeth to grind.

However, threads devoted to bashing other fora have never been part of our stock in trade here and I don't see any advantage to taking it up now as a cause.

Keep the thread focused on its title, the views of East and West on the Dormition versus the Death of the Theotokos. Doing so doesn't necessitate that we engage in inter-site politics and future posts which take that tack will be deleted.

Many years,

Neil

I went a bit overboard with that particular characterization; I apologize. Does that make me a lay apologist? In any event, I should have been more guarded in my assessment. Respecting Neil's wise admonition, I won't go on any further about it, except to say that I was referring to the forum of the website rather than to the website, itself. As for that forum, what has been stated so far on this thread is enough said.

To the subject at hand...

As to matters concerning the Blessed Virgin (her death, conception, and everything in between), I have noticed that there are certain Roman Catholics who rely heavily upon private revelations and popular legends for information about the life of Mary. Such Catholics will typically quote the (alleged) writings of Anna Catherine Emmerich or Maria Valtorta or Nicholas Gruner and other completely unreliable sources as if they were Gospel. There are still more Catholics, I perceive, who, while they may never have actually read such works, have nevertheless absorbed the stories told in them because these legends have become so pervasive within the culture of Roman Catholic devouts.

Legends become truths in that milieu, and these "truths" become infallible. So when you set about to challenge the legends with facts, be prepared for a backlash, because, in their minds, you're assailing the Divinely-revealed Catholic faith. Your facts be damned; they're just lies from the devil.

When you approach certain segments of the Roman Catholic populace and you are met with irrationally indignant pushback for merely asking certain questions, realize that it isn't the Catholic magisterium whose resistance you are encountering, but something else. You're challenging something of a populist folk Catholicism that, Councils and catechesis notwithstanding, just does not want to die.

When the excesses of the reforms of the Second Vatican Council began to leave a bad taste in the mouths of Catholics, generally, there was a backlash among many who were horrified by the profanity that seemed to displace the sacred. Alas, some reacted by clinging to old legends and lovely lies and turning them into doctrines. That's essentially what you see at work in this particular case.

mardukm,
Good to see you again. I haven't posted over there in a long time. I am tired of stuffy know-it-all's over there who think that Catholicism begins and ends in Rome alone. We could call them Solam Romam Catholics, over there. Blech.