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Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: Roman Interloper] #390162 01/25/13 04:42 PM
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Mariya DS Offline
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Fine, Father: I replace "avoid" with "do not attend" and I really hope I owe no further explanations or apologies for my choices.

Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: Mariya DS] #390164 01/25/13 05:19 PM
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Fr David Straut Offline
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Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Fine, Father: I replace "avoid" with "do not attend" and I really hope I owe no further explanations or apologies for my choices.


Great! Thank you for seeing our point. You're right: no need for further apologies. Oh wait, I guessed I missed the apology? No doubt it was my oversight.

Fr David

Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: Mariya DS] #390165 01/25/13 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Originally Posted by chadrook
Look, I am being up front with you. I only ask because I am interested in the "different organization," aspect. I am not looking to start a fight. I have seen this sort of division amongst the "unified Russian Church," and find it curious. I can remember rabid attacks from Bp. Jerome and Fr. John Whiteford on the synod list as to the complete compatibility and unification under the same hierarchy.


What fight, Chadrook? Is anyone fighting?

I never heard of any attacks and I do not know who Jerome and John Whiteford are. The only attacks I ever saw were bizarre comments about MP on some site called Remnant ROCOR, I asked my priest Fr. Stephen Kaznica about it and he told me to pay it no mind.

ROCOR is not a church to which I belong so I don't go there. There are Baptists and Southern Baptists, two separate entities, there is the Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic church, two separate entities. there is the Anglican Church under the Archbishop of Canterbury and its gazillion splitoffs. I do not understand what the issue is in this thread.


Fair enough, I was just stating that I had no intention to start a fight. As you can see, others were offended. I was interested in why you didn't attend. I guess I keyed in on the very same word, avoid, as did the others yet for MUCH different reasons.

But I do have a question, has there not been any sort of outreach that you have seen? We always hear about OCA and ROCOR yet I don't hear much about the MP and ROCOR getting together. And I am not talking about clergy and the con-celebrations, but the laity.

Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: Fr David Straut] #390166 01/25/13 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Fine, Father: I replace "avoid" with "do not attend" and I really hope I owe no further explanations or apologies for my choices.


Great! Thank you for seeing our point. You're right: no need for further apologies. Oh wait, I guessed I missed the apology? No doubt it was my oversight.

Fr David


Now thats the ROCOR I remember!

Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: Fr David Straut] #390167 01/25/13 05:32 PM
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Mariya DS Offline
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Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Fine, Father: I replace "avoid" with "do not attend" and I really hope I owe no further explanations or apologies for my choices.


Great! Thank you for seeing our point. You're right: no need for further apologies. Oh wait, I guessed I missed the apology? No doubt it was my oversight.

Fr David


There wasn't any, I assure you - there word "further" was just my incorrect use of English.

Last edited by Mariya Diawara; 01/25/13 05:34 PM.
Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: chadrook] #390169 01/25/13 05:37 PM
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Mariya DS Offline
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Originally Posted by chadrook

But I do have a question, has there not been any sort of outreach that you have seen? We always hear about OCA and ROCOR yet I don't hear much about the MP and ROCOR getting together. And I am not talking about clergy and the con-celebrations, but the laity.

There was a con-celebration at the 3 Saints Cathedral in New Jersey this winter, that's all I heard of.

Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: Roman Interloper] #390170 01/25/13 05:47 PM
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Also, Chadrook, as far as I know, plenty of people arriving from Russia go to ROCOR churches, OCA churches, and they feel completely at home. I don't think most Orthodox immigrants care about jurisdiction nuances one way or the other.

Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: Mariya DS] #390172 01/25/13 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Originally Posted by chadrook

But I do have a question, has there not been any sort of outreach that you have seen? We always hear about OCA and ROCOR yet I don't hear much about the MP and ROCOR getting together. And I am not talking about clergy and the con-celebrations, but the laity.

There was a con-celebration at the 3 Saints Cathedral in New Jersey this winter, that's all I heard of.

Which, I just remembered, was followed by a dinner for clergy, to which no laypeople were invited. So no, I am not aware of any lay people outreaches.

Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: chadrook] #390173 01/25/13 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by chadrook
As you can see, others were offended.

Folks like to get offended on this board. If someone is offended that I don't go to their church, it's their Mom who needs to comfort them, not me.

Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: Mariya DS] #390174 01/25/13 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Originally Posted by chadrook
As you can see, others were offended.

Folks like to get offended on this board. If someone is offended that I don't go to their church, it's their Mom who needs to comfort them, not me.


Okay, that is enough. This thread is being closed for now until the Administrators view it.

Alice

Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: Roman Interloper] #390229 01/27/13 12:08 AM
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ok - I don't like to get offended, nor do I like to offend, nor do I like others to be offended ... all of which may combine to make me a dreamer in a world where folks can't see one another and must, therefore, rely on their intellectual and emotional take on one another's words to interpret nuances. The problems and concerns and reactions voiced in this thread aren't unique to this forum, they are endemic to internet fora of all kinds - but, perhaps most especially, to religious fora.

That said, I'd really like to reopen this thread - with the goal being to address the OP's initial query and, because I enjoy historical discussion, and because I am a fan of both Father David and Mariya and trust in them to get by this and continue in their usual posting styles. So, it's reopened though I fully support Alice's wise decision to have locked it and let things simmer down.

Put in slightly different terms than he used, RI's query was about the hierarchical, canonical, and organizational structure of the Russian Orthodox community. It's not an uncommon type of query here - we see it pretty regularly - not uniquely directed toward our Russian brethren.

Persons who have 'come East' or are just becoming acquainted with the East are not infrequently baffled by our ecclesiastical divisions (and, please, no one read into my usage of 'divisions' any intent on my part to denigrate the canonical reunification of the MP and ROCOR). The fact is that even in rediscovered unity, we of the East not infrequently maintain parallel canonical structures. Why? As I've remarked on more than a single occasion, the word 'byzantine' can ofttimes be seen to describe more than our ritual praxis.

So, RI wants to know (or wanted to - notably, he has not posted on the thread since, probably sitting at his keyboard wondering what the heck he stepped into) why there are Russian Orthodox temples in his neighborhood which are differently denominated, have different hierarchs, are differently furnished, and are populated by congregations that appear to be different. To his credit, he came here to ask of 'the experts' - the persons in the pews (or not, depending on one's temple), rather than doing an internet search that might have have left him with more questions than answers or relying on Wikipedia - which can be very informative or misinformative, depending on the piece one is reading. Right now, RI is likely thinking that he might have been better off taking either of those routes, risks be damned.

Instead, he finds himself in the online ecclesial version of Jersey Shores, with two members, each of whom is typically notable for their thoughtful responses (and both of whom I'm inordinately fond of, for that very reason), battling it out over perceived slights to themselves or their respective Churches (which are actually one Church). Can we start again, please - leaving aside offensive terminology?

Let me offer a starting point ...

RI,

(What follows is a very simplistic explanation, I'll leave it to others to elaborate the details.)

Historically, beginning at the time of the Bolshevik Revolution and continuing over the subsequent couple of decades, divisions arose in the Russian Orthodox Church. These were prompted by: fears of what the political happenings in Russia meant for the Church; decisions on both sides of the Atlantic which were taken in response to those happenings; by the inability to communicate readily across those same bounds; and, regretably, in some cases by personal ambitions.

The end result was the erection of several different canonical structures, some of which (e.g., the Living Church) have mercifully disappeared from the landscape. The most prominent remaining jurisdictions were: the MP (Moscow Patriarchate); the Russian Metropolia, later retitled as ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) - which, over the years had a few changes in name and also suffered further divisions within its own ranks; and, the OCA (Orthodox Church in America). (As an aside, along the way, each also absorbed into itself some of the Greek-Catholic parishes that parted from Catholicism over the trusteeship and/or married clergy issues. Mariya's parish is, I believe, the sole remaining MP parish to have a Greek-Catholic heritage. ROCOR has some and the OCA more.)

The MP and most, but not all, of ROCOR reunited in the recent past, with some formerly ROCOR parishes refusing to do so. The two maintain separate hierarchical structures. The OCA remains outside that union to date.

ROCOR has a history of being among the more 'traditional' Orthodox jurisdictions in its praxis (witness the lack of pews), but there are degrees in that from parish to parish. A significant number of converts to Holy Orthodoxy have been attracted to ROCOR by that 'traditionalism' (witness the non-Russian congregation you referenced).

There remain a small but strident remnant of non-canonical Russian Orthodox Churches that derived mainly from ROCOR, including HOCNA, ROAC - Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church (I'm pretty certain someone is still/again using that name, which was once an alternative name for ROCOR), and others - many of whom are now aligned with Old Calendrist jurisdictions. Those are essentially irrelevant to this discussion.

If you are interested in more of the historical details, I'm certain that Father David and Mariya can offer those.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: Irish Melkite] #390232 01/27/13 12:23 AM
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Yes, our church remains the only MP church with Greek Catholic heritage! And despite our declining numbers we are bent on staying open and will continue serving our parishioners (I can say the word 'serving' too, since I'm a choir chanter). smile

Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: Roman Interloper] #390348 01/30/13 09:32 AM
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I moved the posts relative to the "Patriarchate of Justice" and the "Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc., Independent Jurisdiction" to a new thread here in Town Hall titled 'The "Other Churches"' - so as to avoid causing any confusion to visitors who might happen on this thread and mistake them for EO or EC Churches.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: Irish Melkite] #390360 01/30/13 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
I moved the posts relative to the "Patriarchate of Justice" and the "Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc., Independent Jurisdiction" to a new thread here in Town Hall titled 'The "Other Churches"' - so as to avoid causing any confusion to visitors who might happen on this thread and mistake them for EO or EC Churches.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you, Neil. I had no idea of what was going on.

Fr David Straut

Re: "Outside of Russia" [Re: Mariya DS] #390375 01/31/13 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Originally Posted by chadrook
Look, I am being up front with you. I only ask because I am interested in the "different organization," aspect. I am not looking to start a fight. I have seen this sort of division amongst the "unified Russian Church," and find it curious. I can remember rabid attacks from Bp. Jerome and Fr. John Whiteford on the synod list as to the complete compatibility and unification under the same hierarchy.


What fight, Chadrook? Is anyone fighting?

I never heard of any attacks and I do not know who Jerome and John Whiteford are. The only attacks I ever saw were bizarre comments about MP on some site called Remnant ROCOR, I asked my priest Fr. Stephen Kaznica about it and he told me to pay it no mind.

ROCOR is not a church to which I belong so I don't go there. There are Baptists and Southern Baptists, two separate entities, there is the Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic church, two separate entities. there is the Anglican Church under the Archbishop of Canterbury and its gazillion splitoffs. I do not understand what the issue is in this thread.
The Remnant ROCOR website is a blog from a woman who is part of the ROCOR synod under Metropolitan Agafangel which rejected communion with the Moscow Patriarchate. Over the years ROCOR has experienced a handful of splits so that today there are I think 7 synods which derive from ROCOR, some of which still refer to themselves as ROCOR/ROCA. And of those 7 synods only 1 is in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate. So that would explain why the Remnant ROCOR website may have had "bizarre comments" regarding the MP.

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