The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
BrotherIsaac, SeekingLight, NoTrueScotsman, Soraya, CuriousMarten
5,759 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 members (Irish Melkite, 1 invisible), 100 guests, and 39 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Byzantine Nebraska
Byzantine Nebraska
by orthodoxsinner2, December 11
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
Church of the Holy Trinity (UGCC) - Brazil
by Santiago Tarsicio, March 17
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
Papal Audience 10 November 2017
by JLF, November 10
Upgraded Russian icon corner
Upgraded Russian icon corner
by The young fogey, October 20
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,046
Posts413,997
Members5,759
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#390839 02/10/13 11:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
I noticed the Typika Service at the Monestery in Wisconsin ...
and the question is

They appear to hold Typika service M Tu Th and DL on Wed Fri.

What is their TYPICA SERVICE during Lent?

Is it the same as a Typica Service at other times of the year?

Are the chant tonality / melodies different during lent vs other times of the year?

Last edited by haydukovich; 02/10/13 11:30 PM.
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 12
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 12
Typica is like the Hours not much changes. The Troparia on the Beatitudes, Troparia and Kontakia, Prokimen, Epistle, Alleluia and Gospel will change. Lenten weekdays would combine Octoechos with Triodion.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
Reverend Father Deacon Lance,

The DL is replaced by Prescanctified during Lent Correct?

So during "ordinary time" is it OK to say Divine Liturgy on any day? or just Wed Fri?

What is tradition?

Why would they do a Typica vs Presanctified during Lent (unless they are orthodox and waiting for the Julian Calendar)

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,760
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,760
Glory to Jesus Christ!

I'm not sure that I'm following this thread correctly. Here is my understanding.

Wednesdays and Fridays are normal fast days, that is reflected in our daily cycle with commemoration of the Cross. During the fast it is very proper to subsitute PDL. I'm not aware of any restriction against celebration of PDL on Monday,Tues and Thursday, except for the Annunciation.

The wording from the Chancery is is tricky, for it says:
[/i]The Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts ONLY (emphasis mine) is to be celebrated on Wednesdays and/or Friday evening of the great Fast and also on Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday of Holy Week." [i

Note that it doesn't say "to be celebrated ONLY" but that it says "ONLY is to be celebrated." Clearer grammar would state, "ONLY the Divine Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts is to be celebrated, etc."

Section 4 of our Particular Law states, 4. The Divine Liturgy may be celebrated at any suitable time, although the morning hours are preferred. Rather than the Divine Liturgy, the Office of the Presanctified Gifts, preferably celebrated in the evening, is prescribed for the ordinary weekdays of the Great Fast.

I apologize if I misunderstood any of the previous posts.

Fr Deacon Paul
.

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
Rev Father Deacon Paul,

Do does the PDL require a priest?

and that is why they do a Typica at the Monestery website I saw?
So that Laymen or a Deacon can do the service absent a priest?


Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 12
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 12
Originally Posted by haydukovich
Reverend Father Deacon Lance,

The DL is replaced by Prescanctified during Lent Correct?

So during "ordinary time" is it OK to say Divine Liturgy on any day? or just Wed Fri?

What is tradition?

Why would they do a Typica vs Presanctified during Lent (unless they are orthodox and waiting for the Julian Calendar)


Divine Liturgy is proscribed weekdays of Great Lent. Outside of Great Lent it could be held everyday but this isn't too common outside monasteries. The may be using Typica as a Communion service on days when Presanctified isn't called for.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 12
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 12
Originally Posted by haydukovich


Do does the PDL require a priest?

and that is why they do a Typica at the Monestery website I saw?
So that Laymen or a Deacon can do the service absent a priest?


Yes, although I don't know why a deacon couldn't do Lenten Vespers as reader's service and distribute the Holy Gifts.

Anyone can do Typica as a reader's service. A deacon may distribute the Holy Gifts at Typica.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,760
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,760
Originally Posted by haydukovich
Rev Father Deacon Paul,

Do does the PDL require a priest?

and that is why they do a Typica at the Monestery website I saw?
So that Laymen or a Deacon can do the service absent a priest?



According to the bishops, a deacon may NOT celebrate a Presanctied Divine Liturgy. A deacon may celebrate a Typika with pre-approval by the blessing of a priest or bishop.

The difference between the two services are litanies and a Eucharistic procession outside the Royal Doors. As far as I can ascertain, these are the only reasons why a deacon can't celebrate PDL. What remains hazy in my mind is why a pre-approval for these can't also be obtained. There is also wording and blessings in the PDL which would have to be revised, as in a Panachida (service for the deceased.)

But these are my thoughts, and I'm not a liturgist.

Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 844
Well, considering that Annunciation falls on Holy Week this year (day after Palm Sunday, mind you), I'm sure that the Divine Liturgy of that Feast will supercede the Holy Monday PDL, and will be celebrated instead. Outside of that, only a Presanctified Gifts Liturgy is permissible.

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 787
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 787
The Service of the Typika is appointed by the Typikon to be done every weekday of the Great Fast after the Ninth Hour, including days on which the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts will be served and on the Annunciation, should it fall on a weekday in Great Lent. (The aggregate of evening services in the Great Fast is: Third Hour, Sivth Hour, Ninth Hour, Typika, and Vespers. On days on which the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts is served, the Presanctified is the Vespers of that day. When Annunciation falls on a weekday in the Fast, its Vesperal Liturgy on the day of the Feast itself is the Vespers of that day.)

The Lenten Typika Service does indeed differ from the Typika served outside of Great Lent. For one thing it begins with the Beatitudes rather than the two typical psalms.

Outside of the Great Fast the Service of the Typika is often done in places where there is no Liturgy due to a lack of a priest to serve. It has alao been done when there is a priest to serve who had already celebrated the Liturgy that day. In that case, Holy Communion from a previous Liturgy is sometimes distributed at the Typika Service to those prepared to receive Holy Communion.

The Typikon does not envision the Service of the Typika as some kind of substitute for the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts on lenten weekdays other than Wednesday and Friday.

Archpriest David Straut

Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 12
Moderator
Member
Offline
Moderator
Member
Joined: Aug 1998
Posts: 4,261
Likes: 12
Originally Posted by Fr David Straut

The Typikon does not envision the Service of the Typika as some kind of substitute for the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts on lenten weekdays other than Wednesday and Friday.

Archpriest David Straut


Indeed, I don't think it envisions Communion being distributed at Typica period. However, I would not be shocked if the monastery were Greek Catholic if this was done.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 60
F
Member
Offline
Member
F
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 60
Sorry to come to this rather late. Someone just pointed the thread out to me, and I just wanted to clarify our practice here at HRM in Wisconsin.

Typica is scheduled (almost) every day.

When we have the Divine Liturgy the Typica is incorporated by taking the place of the preliminary Antiphons, as is the common practice among most churches in the Byzantine Rite (Ruthenians/Ukrainians tend to follow another, probably older, practice).

When the Divine Liturgy is not served, the Typica is scheduled at the place prescribed in the Horologion. On most days that is after the Sixth Hour. On fasting, "Alleluia" days that is after the Ninth Hour.

(The Typica moves around because it is really a kind of extended "grace" before meals. It follows an ancient monastic practice (I presume that followed in the Palestinian coenobia from which our Typicon derives) which is to have a formal meal, or "trapeza" at shortly after noon (Sixth Hour) on most days, or else delay it on fast days until after the Ninth Hour.

It is often said that the Typica is a Communion Service. I'm not sure that's quite accurate. It's certainly a meal prayer, and Holy Communion, when taken, would always be the very first food consumed in any day. There isn't really a "communion fast" in the Byzantine Rite, at least insofar as the rite is grounded in Palestinian monastic practices. There was simply an assumption (later given canonical form) that piety requires, if you're receiving the Eucharist, it will always be the food that "breaks the fast" ie. the usual daily fast from yesterday's trapeza to today's. That's why Father David is perfectly correct to point out the fundamental difference between the Liturgy of Presanctified--a fully fledged Communion service--and the Typica.)

I have to say, in all honesty that, although we schedule the Typica, it is frequently dispensed in our practice since we're rather small and often something has to give! We never distribute Communion as part of the Typica taken apart from the Divine Liturgy. And it's usually taken as a reader service in the absence of one of the priest monks.

Of course none of this should be taken to tell other folks how to bring the Typicon to life in their own parish or monastery! I just wanted to clarify our practice for whatever that's worth :-)

Fr Maximos
Holy Resurrection Monastery

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 421
Reverend Fathers (Priests and Deacons)

I think this clears up my questions of the Typika service vs Presanctified Liturgies ...

It is true that each parish needs to bring to life the Typicon - a beautiful way to think about it.

I will probably never be a Typicon Expert ... these details are better left to experts ...

That being said - this has been a very informative discussion and I thank you for enlightening me with my questions.

Outside of a Monastery - in the Parishes with time contraints (Monks don't have those right?) and very busy schedules of modern life - where the church is not central to life as it may have been once upon a time.

Kissing the right hand of all ordained in this thread!

John


Moderated by  Administrator, Father Anthony 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2020 (Forum 1998-2020). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5