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#391368 - 02/21/13 03:38 AM Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome?
haydukovich Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Las Vegas, NV USA
Do you think it's time for the Latin Catholic Church to start rethinking the hard line of Papal Infallibility? - perhaps take major steps now to return to Orthodoxy as the Bishop of Rome once was? - certainly a Bishop with primacy but EQUAL in status to ALL OTHER BISHOPS - snd perhaps give up his role of "RULING" the Christian world and all it's Bishosps.

Just like Vatican II when all it's hope and fervor went astray on liturgical excesses (almost immediately) - maybe it's time for the Pope to voluntarily reel himself back in to a more normal - less dictatorial role.

Just a thought as a new Pope is about to be selected by a group of Bishops who seem to think they are superior to other Bishops (I am not a huge fan of Latin Catholic Hierarchical structure)

It would be great to hear what the Byzantine Catholic world thinks about this event.

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#391403 - 02/21/13 09:39 PM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: haydukovich]
shawnbm Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Florida, USA
I am a Latin Rite Catholic who is very fond and respectful of the Eastern Catholic AND Orthodox Churches. I do not believe "papal infallibility" means what you say, but, regardless, union between the two churches would NOT require any change to the dogma concerning infallibility. The Church is infallible by way of the Spirit working through the College of Bishops and the pontiff as servant of the servants of God. I have to go now, but others can chime in.

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#391419 - 02/22/13 07:53 AM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: haydukovich]
Krysostomos Offline
Member

Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 73
Loc: Pirkanmaa, Finland
Originally Posted By: haydukovich
Do you think it's time for the Latin Catholic Church to start rethinking the hard line of Papal Infallibility? - perhaps take major steps now to return to Orthodoxy as the Bishop of Rome once was? - certainly a Bishop with primacy but EQUAL in status to ALL OTHER BISHOPS

- maybe it's time for the Pope to voluntarily reel himself back in to a more normal - less dictatorial role.


I think it is the time...
Even I am officially a rc but a very eastern minded one, for me the pope is the bishop of Rome and the patriarch of all the west.
I prefear the role of the pope to change more the one it uded to be during the old undiveded church, when the bishop of Rome was the first one among the equals - no more but no less...

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#391424 - 02/22/13 04:28 PM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: shawnbm]
eastwardlean? Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/13
Posts: 184
Loc: Ohio, United States
shawnbm, I agree that the official teaching on infallibility can be understood as not intrinsically opposed to an Orthodox account. Even the Vatican I definition of papal infallibility teaches that the papacy enjoys the same infallibility as the church as a whole.

That said, a great many Orthodox are not persuaded by this argument. According to them, union would require a change in the Catholic church's teaching.

Moreover, I do think that haydukovich may be on to something. Though I doubt the Pope's resignation will occasion any change in official teaching on the matter, I do think it may contribute to a different understanding of teaching on the papal ministry among Catholics.

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#391425 - 02/22/13 04:47 PM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: Krysostomos]
eastwardlean? Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/13
Posts: 184
Loc: Ohio, United States
I believe that the Pope made his decision partly as a contribution to the larger re-figuring of the papal office, as it is understood by Catholics.

I believe that Pope Benedict's resignation will occasion plenty of conversation about the Church's teaching on papal ministry and authority. I even hope that he will (someday) share his own theological opinions on the matter with the whole Church, though I expect we will have to wait for it.

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#391496 - 02/25/13 12:18 AM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: eastwardlean?]
Roman Interloper Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/12
Posts: 324
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: eastwardlean?
I believe that the Pope made his decision partly as a contribution to the larger re-figuring of the papal office, as it is understood by Catholics.

I believe that Pope Benedict's resignation will occasion plenty of conversation about the Church's teaching on papal ministry and authority. I even hope that he will (someday) share his own theological opinions on the matter with the whole Church, though I expect we will have to wait for it.



I agree. The conversation has already begun along the lines of, "so, at precisely what moment does Benedict XVI cease to be infallible? Can such a charism really just vanish at the stroke of certain hour on the clock?"

For my own part, I leave such matters to the theologians; it's all above my head. I do, however, see in Benedict's decision to abdicate a move toward a re-imagination of what the papacy means to the Church. I believe that Benedict XVI views the papacy in light of the complete history of the office and of the Church, and that he therefore recognizes a need for the papacy's de-mystification, as it were. A resignation of the office by the incumbent certainly has the effect of strking a blow against the legendary papacy of 20th century private revelations around which the world and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ revolve.

I don't beleive there is any more stomach in Rome for perpetuating the hyper-papacy and it seems to me that the powers that be are trying...slowly...to bring the office back down to earth again. This resignation is very likely the next step, as it were, towards Rome's oft-stated long term goal of de-centralization in favor of greater episcopal collegiality.

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#391506 - 02/25/13 02:56 AM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: haydukovich]
Paul B Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/01
Posts: 1727
Loc: PA
I would be pleasantly shocked should there be a change in Western Catholic thinking about the Papacy.

The Magisterium is too entrenched, bureaucratic and rigid to allow such a change. The alleged scandals in the Vatican result from this entrenched bureacracy and the Pope can't do anything about it. It's much like our Supreme Court, except our 9 nine judges attract a lot more attention than the hundreds of Vatican officials.

The various Vatican offices should be filled by Synods of bishops electing officials with automatic appointment unless the Pope rejects an appointee.

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#391510 - 02/25/13 03:15 AM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: haydukovich]
Roman Interloper Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/12
Posts: 324
Loc: New York
There has been a change in thinking for a very long time, now. The realization of the changes envisioned, however, will be very gradual, coming about in subtle stages over a long period of time. It isn't something that's going to happen overnight.

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#391538 - 02/25/13 09:36 PM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: haydukovich]
8IronBob Offline
Member

Registered: 08/15/12
Posts: 847
Loc: Parma, Ohio, USA
Well, I know that watching the news that Pope Benedict XVI revised the rules in terms of when the Conclave of Cardinals can vote now, so we might have a new Pope of Rome before we know it. Before the Great and Holy Week, I think.

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#391540 - 02/25/13 10:59 PM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: haydukovich]
shawnbm Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/11/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Florida, USA
There will be quite a bit of misinformation about the Holy Father's charism of infallibility as the supreme pontiff. It is a difficult subject for our sound-bite "post-modern" world. Looking at the pope as first among equals--as servant of the servants of God--infallibility is not hard to comprehend when properly presented. It is not personal to the man if he no longer sits on the chair of Saint Peter--it is his office that is protected from error in teaching or proclaiming a matter of faith or morals. That cannot, has not and will not ever be exercised without the pontiff having been in constant collegial discussion with the college of bishops. It can't happen. The same would be the case with the "Eastern Orthodox"; they would be part of the college of bishops under their Patriarchs who, I would submit, would be the final call on anything in their Churches--although the tradition of seeking communion with the Apostolic See of Rome and it being granted every time (as long as one is not a notorious heretic) by Pope in Rome. One has to go through a lot of mental and hypothetical gymnastics to arrive at a scenario whereby the Orthodox fears of some would be realized. We know odd things can arise, as is demonstrated by the heresies that arose and which were the reasons for the first Seven Ecumenical Councils of the Undivided Church. I think unification is closer than many think--the big problem will be the laity and perceptions grounded in legend, ancient histories with their biases (on both sides) and a desire to simply leave each other alone and be friends--even if in imperfect union.

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#391552 - 02/26/13 04:23 AM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: haydukovich]
haydukovich Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/09
Posts: 425
Loc: Las Vegas, NV USA
I like to think of the major teachings of the church as infallible and leave human beings out of being able to be infallible.

Isn't that what the original idea behind infallibility was?
to defend the correct teachings of the church as infallible and not a single man?
That is why a Synod of Bishops is required in the East - when they hash it out - and decide - and then the idea is accepted in all the apostolic churches - then and only then does a teaching become infallible - it may take a years or hundreds of years ...

Making one guy (albeit an important guy) infallible is the root of the problem.

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#391564 - 02/26/13 02:54 PM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: shawnbm]
Utroque Offline
Member

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 445
Loc: Kennebunk, Maine
Originally Posted By: shawnbm
There will be quite a bit of misinformation about the Holy Father's charism of infallibility as the supreme pontiff. It is a difficult subject for our sound-bite "post-modern" world. Looking at the pope as first among equals--as servant of the servants of God--infallibility is not hard to comprehend when properly presented. It is not personal to the man if he no longer sits on the chair of Saint Peter--it is his office that is protected from error in teaching or proclaiming a matter of faith or morals. That cannot, has not and will not ever be exercised without the pontiff having been in constant collegial discussion with the college of bishops. It can't happen. The same would be the case with the "Eastern Orthodox"; they would be part of the college of bishops under their Patriarchs who, I would submit, would be the final call on anything in their Churches--although the tradition of seeking communion with the Apostolic See of Rome and it being granted every time (as long as one is not a notorious heretic) by Pope in Rome. One has to go through a lot of mental and hypothetical gymnastics to arrive at a scenario whereby the Orthodox fears of some would be realized. We know odd things can arise, as is demonstrated by the heresies that arose and which were the reasons for the first Seven Ecumenical Councils of the Undivided Church. I think unification is closer than many think--the big problem will be the laity and perceptions grounded in legend, ancient histories with their biases (on both sides) and a desire to simply leave each other alone and be friends--even if in imperfect union.


Very well stated. Pope Pius XII, of blessed memory, also states well just how the pope exercises his teaching office in Munificentissimus Deus:

Quote:
11. And, since we were dealing with a matter of such great moment and of such importance, we considered it opportune to ask all our venerable brethren in the episcopate directly and authoritatively that each of them should make known to us his mind in a formal statement. Hence, on May 1, 1946, we gave them our letter "Deiparae Virginis Mariae," a letter in which these words are contained: "Do you, venerable brethren, in your outstanding wisdom and prudence, judge that the bodily Assumption of the Blessed Virgin can be proposed and defined as a dogma of faith? Do you, with your clergy and people, desire it?"
12. But those whom "the Holy Spirit has placed as bishops to rule the Church of God"(4) gave an almost unanimous affirmative response to both these questions. This "outstanding agreement of the Catholic prelates and the faithful,"(5) affirming that the bodily Assumption of God's Mother into heaven can be defined as a dogma of faith, since it shows us the concordant teaching of the Church's ordinary doctrinal authority and the concordant faith of the Christian people which the same doctrinal authority sustains and directs, thus by itself and in an entirely certain and infallible way, manifests this privilege as a truth revealed by God and contained in that divine deposit which Christ has delivered to his Spouse to be guarded faithfully and to be taught infallibly.(6) Certainly this teaching authority of the Church, not by any merely human effort but under the protection of the Spirit of Truth,(7) and therefore absolutely without error, carries out the commission entrusted to it, that of preserving the revealed truths pure and entire throughout every age, in such a way that it presents them undefiled, adding nothing to them and taking nothing away from them. For, as the Vatican Council teaches, "the Holy Spirit was not promised to the successors of Peter in such a way that, by his revelation, they might manifest new doctrine, but so that, by his assistance, they might guard as sacred and might faithfully propose the revelation delivered through the apostles, or the deposit of faith."(8) Thus, from the universal agreement of the Church's ordinary teaching authority we have a certain and firm proof, demonstrating that the Blessed Virgin Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven- which surely no faculty of the human mind could know by its own natural powers, as far as the heavenly glorification of the virginal body of the loving Mother of God is concerned-is a truth that has been revealed by God and consequently something that must be firmly and faithfully believed by all children of the Church. For, as the Vatican Council asserts, "all those things are to be believed by divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the written Word of God or in Tradition, and which are proposed by the Church, either in solemn judgment or in its ordinary and universal teaching office, as divinely revealed truths which must be believed."

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#391576 - 02/26/13 08:40 PM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: shawnbm]
Epiphanius Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 1110
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: eastwardlean?
Originally Posted By: shawnbm
Originally Posted By: haydukovich
Do you think it's time for the Latin Catholic Church to start rethinking the hard line of Papal Infallibility? - perhaps take major steps now to return to Orthodoxy as the Bishop of Rome once was? - certainly a Bishop with primacy but EQUAL in status to ALL OTHER BISHOPS - snd perhaps give up his role of "RULING" the Christian world and all it's Bishosps.

I do not believe "papal infallibility" means what you say, but, regardless, union between the two churches would NOT require any change to the dogma concerning infallibility. The Church is infallible by way of the Spirit working through the College of Bishops and the [roman] pontiff as servant of the servants of God.

I agree that the official teaching on infallibility can be understood as not intrinsically opposed to an Orthodox account. Even the Vatican I definition of papal infallibility teaches that the papacy enjoys the same infallibility as the church as a whole.

The real issue here is whether or not the Pope of Rome has the authority to speak on behalf of the entire Church on matters of faith and morals. According to Eastern ecclesiology, he would only be able to do so when acting as spokesman for the synod of bishops. (Furthermore, his authority would not be considered necessary to validate the synod's decisions.)


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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#391581 - 02/26/13 10:04 PM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: haydukovich]
eastwardlean? Offline
Member

Registered: 02/18/13
Posts: 184
Loc: Ohio, United States
Epiphanius/Deacon Richard,

I agree that you have correctly identified what the doctrine amounts to and also that it is not acceptable in this form to the Eastern Orthodox churches. That said, I think it is still worth talking about just what the teaching amounts to.

It is probably worth pointing out that the undivided Church held differing accounts of Roman authority within its unbroken communion. Papal teaching authority could be limited by canons and other measures within a reunited Church. It is not difficult to imagine the Roman Pope's primacy in terms of the presidency for inalienably synodal decisions, and it is not difficult for me to think of papal infallibility (from a Catholic perspective) re-figured very much along those lines.

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#391582 - 02/26/13 10:44 PM Re: Pope Resignation - A Time for re-evaluation of Bishop of Rome? [Re: haydukovich]
Epiphanius Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 1110
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: haydukovich
Isn't that what the original idea behind infallibility was? ... a Synod of Bishops is required ... [and] when they hash it out - and decide - and then the idea is accepted in all the apostolic churches - then and only then does a teaching become infallible - it may take years or hundreds of years ...

That's my understanding exactly.

I think the problem is that the Western Medieval model of society assumed one person at the top whose authority was beyond challnge (which also explains why the Pope had to be over all secular rulers as well). This was seen as the only way to ensure a stable society, and was considered to be a God-given rule. From this perspective, the notion of "acceptance by the entire Church" being necessary would be considered downright preposterous (how democratic!).

At Vatican II, a number of post-Medieval ideas were incorporated into RC doctrine for the first time. This laid the axe to the root of some heretofore unassailable notions, of which papal infallibility *may* be one ...


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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