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#106079 - 02/10/04 08:53 AM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Happy Birthday Irish Melkite Offline
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Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9932
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
There used to be an "Italo-Greek Orthodox Church" in New York State somewhere . . .

They published Akathists to St Lucy and Italian Saints and while I ordered some, I somehow never received them.

Their site is now disabled, but it would have been interesting to find out more about them.
Alex,

They are, as Anthony notes, in Utica. While what was the "Archdiocesan" site is disabled, their Cathedral site is active:

Cathedral of the Theotokos of Great Grace

As I recollect, from a couple years back, the Archdiocesan site suggested that it was under the omophor of the MP, but I've never seen any indication elsewhere supporting that. I read a reference elsewhere to its parental jurisdiction being Le Sacre Orientale Chiesa di Gesu Cristo Italo-Greca Ortodosso (the Holy Eastern Orthodox Italo-Greek Church of Jesus Christ), an entity that I haven't been able to track down.

There was also an online site, at one time, for a Monastery of Saint Neilos (more commonly spelled "Nilus" in my experience, the founder of the Exarchic Abbey & Territorial Monastery of Santa Maria di Grottaferrata in Italy), also situated in Utica. But, the links to it from various sites all now result in a "page not found" error.

The Cathedral site doesn't identify their hierarch by name or list any other parishes or institutions. English, Italian, and a Sicilian dialect are all used. The Rector, an Archimandrite, was previously connected to the monastery (deduced from info on a monastery listing site that named him in an acknowledgement). If you review the info at the Cathedral site, the Church sounds relatively mainstream (although one page characterizes the Armenian Apostolics and Coptic Orthodox as Protestants).

Yes, there is a "however" though. Denis Garrison, a well-known episcopus vagante (last I read, he is now Dom Denis, Archbishop of the Old Roman Church of God, Diocese of Monkton (MD); he has previously been associated with several different "independent" "Catholic" and "Orthodox" jurisdictions) speaks approvingly of the fact that the parent Church has a married episcopate. He implies that this is true of its US Archdiocese as well.

You may be out of luck as regards the Akathists frown , the online Gift Shop seems to offer only icons and statuettes.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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#106080 - 02/10/04 09:59 AM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Happy Birthday Irish Melkite Offline
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Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9932
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:
Originally posted by Mexican:
Is there a huge difference between Italo-Albanian Church and the Albanian Orthodox liturgy?

Are the first ones latinized? I had the idea that those in Italy had kept Greek for the liturgical celebration and part Old Albanian, but that they have now introduced vulgar tongues (Italian, English). How accurate is this?
Mexican,

Originally, there were two separate communities; the 2 Eparchies represent the Italo-Albanian heritage, while the Exarchic Abbey is the last true jurisdictional remnant of the Italo-Greek heritage; all are now treated as a single entity.
There Churches suffered a great deal from active and passive latinization on the part of Rome. An idea of the forms this took can be gotten by reading the 1917 Catholic Encyclopedia piece on them, which is very descriptive and echoes the Latin triumphalism of the time, as noted above.

Italo-Greeks

There is also an excellent discussion at the website of Our Lady of Grace Society of how these influences affected the Churches.

Italo-Albanians

There seems to be very general agreement that this Church has been very successful in restoring and maintaining the richness of its Byzantine heritage. The 3 jurisdictions held an inter-eparchial synod in 1940 to assure consistency of liturgical practice; a delegation from the Albanian Orthodox Church participated as observers. In 1973, an official delegation from the Holy Synod of the Greek Orthodox Church visited the Eparchy of Piana degli Albenisi and, afterwards, spoke with high praise of the purity and orthodoxy of the liturgical practice of the Italo-Albanians. Similar praise has been accorded to the Abbey.

The Abbey uses Greek primarily in its Liturgy, with some Italian. The Eparchies use Albanian, Greek, and some Italian.

As Andrew notes, while the Church has maintained continuous communion with Rome, it has a unique history in that the Italo-Albanian component of it came into being when Albanian Orthodox emigrated to Italy at a time of union between Constantinople and Rome and were, for a time, subject to the Patriarch of Constantinople, despite being in Rome's back yard. That aspect of its history is discussed at Our Lady of Grace Society's website, as well.
Italy\'s Byzantine Catholics

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

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#106081 - 02/10/04 03:18 PM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Ladyhawke1017 Offline
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Registered: 05/04/03
Posts: 384
Loc: North Carolina
I am finding the topic of Italo-Greek Byzantines fascinating to say the least...my dad was Sicilian and Roman Catholic, but so many of the things he did, that never made sense when I was a kid, make sense now that I am in the East...the way he crossed himself with three fingers, his strong insistance that Our Lady grew up in the Temple and that She fell asleep before the Assumption...he would never say that She died. I am starting to realize that even among the RC's of Sicily there must have been a strong Eastern influence that maybe some,like my dad, just didn't understand. So much of Eastern spirituality is so natural to me because of how he raised us...I wish I had gone East before he died and I really wish we had known about the Italo-Greek mission on Staten Island back then...I have a feeling my dad would have felt as home in the East as I do.

Vie

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#106082 - 02/10/04 03:45 PM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Happy Birthday Irish Melkite Offline
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Registered: 10/27/03
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ladyhawke1017:
I am starting to realize that even among the RC's of Sicily there must have been a strong Eastern influence that maybe some,like my dad, just didn't understand. So much of Eastern spirituality is so natural to me because of how he raised us...I wish I had gone East before he died and I really wish we had known about the Italo-Greek mission on Staten Island back then...I have a feeling my dad would have felt as home in the East as I do.
Vie,

You're right. Byzantine influence in Sicily was very significant and it's not necessary that your dad even have had Greek ancestry for his forebears to have been of the Byzantine Church. If you've seen Our Lady of Grace's website, you may have read its discussion of what was originally a Byzantine Italian Church. It ultimately became assimilated into the Italo-Greek Church and ceased to exist as a distinguishable entity.

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

Top
#106083 - 02/13/04 02:34 PM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Andrew J. Rubis Offline
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Registered: 10/17/02
Posts: 1227
Loc: Philadelphia
I've been busy, but glad to see continuing interest on this subject.

The liturgical purity of the Italo-Albanian Greek Church in Italy and Sicily is undisputed. I, an Albanian Orthodox from the USA, worshipped and chanted in one of their parishes during my Naval duty in Italy in 1989-1990. I didn't notice any major differences.

Some of their senior clergy had even asked me for the latest publications from the Church of Albania so that they could use modern liturgical Albanian.

The eparchies are wise to use all three languages. The Gospel insists that we worship in the language of the people: better a few words in a language that is understood than a thousand words in unintelligible toungues, to paraphrase the Apostle Paul.

As a result of polylingualism, the Eparchies have attracted Italians of all three heritages (Italian, Greek, and Albanian) as well as students from Greece (be they ethnic Greek, Arvaniti[Albanian], or Slav) studying in cities such as Rome or Lecce, and newly-arrived Albanian immigrants.

It is a tragedy that in N. America, the Western Church has not allowed them to flourish. Staten Island/Our Lady of Grace has been pretty well smothered. The Las Vegas group had to open up under the wing of the Ruthenians or some other Byzcath Eparchy. Frankly, it is a scandal. The Italo-Albanian Greek parishes could easily have had parishes also in Chicago, Madison, Toronto, Boston (Hudson), Worcester, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Sacramento, and New Orleans.

These families, now in Latin parishes, have handed down traditions, language, and icons that only a former association with the Byzantine Rite of worship explains. But in N. America, they have few or no reference points by which to understand that association. Some of them even end up in the Albanian or Greek Orthodox Churches, like two of my Godsons.

With love in Christ,
Andrew

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#106084 - 02/13/04 02:40 PM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Fr. Deacon Lance Offline
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Andrew,

Our Lady of Wisdom Italo-Greek Catholic Church is a parish of the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Van Nuys.

Fr. Deacon Lance
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My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

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#106085 - 02/13/04 03:25 PM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Andrew J. Rubis Offline
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Registered: 10/17/02
Posts: 1227
Loc: Philadelphia
Dear Fr. Dn Lawrence,

Thanks.

And the fascinating thing about the opening of Our Lady of Wisdom in Las Vegas is that it follows the highly successful opening by Fr. Ilia Katre (an Albanian-American) of St. John the Baptist Greek Orthodox Church in Las Vegas. I imagine, knowing Fr. Ilia (now Bishop Ilia of the Albanian Orthodox Diocese of America) since my own childhood, that he was probably attracting to Orthodoxy Italian and Sicilian-Americans of Byzantine heritage.

His great success there (an enormous Byzantine cathedral-sized church) probably spurred those not wishing to leave communion with Rome to found Our Lady of Wisdom.

This doesn't upset me, but points back to the original problem, the suppression of the Byzantine Rite in North America.

In Christ,
Andrew

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#106086 - 02/13/04 03:37 PM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Diak Offline
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Registered: 03/24/02
Posts: 7438
Loc: Kansas/UGCC
Andrew, thanks for your informative posts. It would probably have been more appropriate in hindsight (speaking of the Las Vegas Greek Catholic community) for an Italo-Greek community to be under the Melkites who share the Greek liturgical usage.

The real tragedy is if the Latins would have handled this correctly, there would have been ample communities to form an Exarchate. Another opportunity to foster particularity dashed, and communities scattered to the wind. God bless Bishop Ilia, Archimandrite Stephen and the others who minister to these people.

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#106087 - 02/14/04 10:38 AM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Happy Birthday Irish Melkite Offline
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Registered: 10/27/03
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diak:
It would probably have been more appropriate in hindsight (speaking of the Las Vegas Greek Catholic community) for an Italo-Greek community to be under the Melkites who share the Greek liturgical usage.
Diak,

I agree, although I doubt that possibility was ever considered. It's my impression that the parish's erection within the Ruthenian Eparchy was a fortunate consequence of St. Gabriel the Archangel Byzantine Ruthenian parish in Las Vegas discovering this community of faithful waiting to be served. It is to the credit of Father (now Right Reverend Mitred Archpriest) Stephen (Washko) and the Van Nuys Eparchy that they undertook to meet the community's spiritual needs.

By the same reasoning, one could consider that St. Andrew's Russian Catholic parish in El Segundo, CA, would be more appropriately served under the omophor of Van Nuys, rather than Newton (Melkite). Of course, there are special circumstances involved there, with the parish pastored by Father Archimandrite Alexei Smith, a Melkite priest, who was a parishoner of St. Andrew's prior to his transfer to and ordination in the Melkite Church. (Not to forget our historic ties to the Russian Church in the person of Father Nicholas Tolstoy of blessed memory, as you noted in another thread wink .)

Frankly, in the interregnum that will endure for who knows how long, it would seem that the best interests of the other three U.S. Russian parishes and Our Lady of Wisdom Society would be best served by entrusting them to the omophor of hierarchs not of their Church, but of their Rite, to preside over them as per the norms of common and particular law (hierarchs in locum tenens), until such time as they are accorded canonical jurisdictions of their own.

(I like that notion. Think the Congregation would jump on it as a suggestion from me? wink .)

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

Top
#106088 - 02/14/04 06:27 PM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
incognitus Offline
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Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 3516
Loc: .
If there was really the potential for Italo-Greek parishes in the cities mentioned, I am cruel enough to suggest that much of the responsibility for the lack of such parishes rests with the Italo-Greeks. Sorry to be offensive, but the history of various Eastern Catholic groups demonstrates that those who are NOT willing to roll over and play dead eventually succeed. Go visit Shenandoah, Pennsylvania, for the oldest example. In the specific case of Our Lady of Grace, Staten Island, the society was asked several times by the bishops in Italy if they did not need a priest - and the answer was always "no, we don't need a priest, we need a church!". This is sheer madness; the building does not create the community. Nor could anyone have reasonably expected the Bishops in Italy to have sent over a church edifice, bells and all, and provided a building site into the bargain. Any group that seriously wants a parish should get busy and start one instead of weeping about the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Good works are wrought with trouble, and accomplished with pain, but whosoever endures to the end will be saved!
Incognitus

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#106089 - 02/16/04 05:00 PM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Orthodox Catholic Offline
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Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 24129
Loc: Canada
Dear Neil,

Yes, thank you for that informative post!

I've corresponded with Dom Denis Garrison in years past who is now with the "Ecumenical Orthodox Catholic Church" as you know.

He has set up a Benedictine congregation, an "Confraternity of Orthodox Rosarians" who pray the Rosary daily and an order of Knights Templar (www.eocc.net).

Alex

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#106090 - 02/17/04 01:15 PM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Happy Birthday Irish Melkite Offline
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Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 9932
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
I've corresponded with Dom Denis Garrison in years past who is now with the "Ecumenical Orthodox Catholic Church" as you know.

He has set up a Benedictine congregation, an "Confraternity of Orthodox Rosarians" who pray the Rosary daily and an order of Knights Templar (www.eocc.net).
Alex,

Actually, Garrison heads up the Old Roman Church of God

Old Roman Church of God

which is a member jurisdiction of the Synod of the Ecumenical Orthodox Catholic Communion, together with the Ecumenical Orthodox Catholic Church and about 9 or 10 other "Churches", including (in your neighborhood - headquartered in Toronto)

The Apostolic Orthodox Catholic Church of Canada, Archeparchy of Jesus the Good Shepherd

Garrison's history as an episcopus vagante goes back at least 20 years; he's been involved with "successors" to Aftimios Ofeish's THEOCACNA and The Holy Eastern Orthodox Catholic and Apostolic Church in North America, among others variously styled as "Orthodox" and/or "Catholic".

I was a bit surprised to see that he's apparently suffragn to the "Archbishop and Primate III(?)" of the EOCC; usually, he himself is at the head of the hierarchical structure. Garrison is rather prolific; last time I checked, he had consecrated a dozen or more bishops. He's also a poet of some repute, specializing in haiku.

There's an outline bio of him at

Denis Garrison

Many years,

Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."

Top
#106091 - 02/17/04 02:05 PM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Orthodox Catholic Offline
Member

Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 24129
Loc: Canada
Dear Neil,

Yes, thank you!

He is also very committed to Templarism as his Templar page shows.

His Templars met in special convocation in 1997 and canonized Jacques de Molay, Geoffroi de Chancey and all the Templars done to death by the Inquisition in France.

They also placed the 20,000 + Templars who died in the Holy Land on their calendar as martyrs.

In addition, they canonized the 300 pilgrims who were slaughtered by the Saracens one Easter Sunday near Jerusalem as martyrs.

As you know, Friday the 13th comes from the arrest of the Templars by the French king on that day - and October 13th is a day of the commemoration of the Templars for this group and others.

Both Aftimios Ofiesh and Theophan Noli are honoured as saints by that group and others - having been canonized at the "Synod of Baltimore" in 1985.

Some groups have also canonized Rene Villatte and Antoine Aneed. The Celtic groups have canonized Morgan of Wales (or Pelagius) and John Scotus Eriugena (of the 9th century).

The Celtic Orthodox Christian Church (celticchristianity.org) was once in communion with Dom Garrison, but I don't know if they still are.

Fascinating stuff.

And here is a method for reciting the "Our Father Psalter of Christ" or the "Pater Noster Psalter:"

www.orcg.org/public/psalterhypertext.html

Alex

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#106092 - 02/19/04 05:44 PM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Andrew J. Rubis Offline
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Registered: 10/17/02
Posts: 1227
Loc: Philadelphia
Dear Incognitus,

My understanding is that when His Grace, Bishop Ercole (Luppinaci) was in Staten Island most recently, he was petitioned ONCE AGAIN by Our Lady of Grace to reestablish the Italo-Greek Rite in North America. I beleive that the response was something to the effect that he did not possess the authority to do so.

I don't think that His Grace lacks the will, but the authority. While in Boston once, he even celebrated at the altar of the Albanian Orthodox Cathedral, St. George.

Remember, his diocese in Calabria and the other Italo-Albanian Greek diocese in Sicily are Eparchies responsible directliness to His Holines, the Pope of Rome. They are in effect, auxilliaries and have to authority in North America.

The Italo-Greek Rite, of all of the Byzantine Rite Churches in North America, poses the greatest danger to the Latin Rite in North America since such an enormous percentage of current Latin Rite Italian-Americans can, if they try, trace their roots back to that heritage.

In Christ,
Andrew

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#106093 - 02/19/04 06:50 PM Re: Italo-Greek Catholic Church
Logos - Alexis Offline
Member

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 4680
Loc: Georgia
The Byzantine Italo-Greek /AlbanianChurch is very interesting to me, as my father's family are straight off-the-boat Sicilians.

Viva Sicilia!

Logos Teen

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