The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Galumph, Leon_C, Rocco, Hvizsgyak, P.W.
5,984 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 456 guests, and 39 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,389
Posts416,722
Members5,984
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 11 1 2 3 4 10 11
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
J
JDC Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by JDC
The correct response here isn't to make excuses. It's to say "Obviously bishops shouldn't be accepting blessings from Protestant ministers. It confuses people. That was a lapse" and have done with it.

Genuine question, what's confusing about it? Maybe I'm not thinking hard enough.

Observe the discussion here and elsewhere about what is or is not meant by the gesture.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,285
AthanasiusTheLesser
Member
Offline
AthanasiusTheLesser
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,285
Originally Posted by JDC
The correct response here isn't to make excuses. It's to say "Obviously bishops shouldn't be accepting blessings from Protestant ministers. It confuses people. That was a lapse" and have done with it.

He didn't accept a blessing from Protestant ministers. The sort of Protestant ministers involved in this scenario that is causing all of this stupid hell raising (that may very well involve the sin of detraction) don't even claim for themselves any sort of special, ministerial authority to impart any sort of blessing that is peculiar to the authority of the ordained. They don't have any sort of sacramental understanding of ordination. For them, those who are ordained are set apart to perform certain funtions (mainly preaching). However, they do not understand ordination as imparting any sort of character or power that is any different from what they believe any Christian to have.

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
J
JDC Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Okay, when you kneel down before a Catholic priest and he extends his hands over you and prays, what is he doing?

No fair peeking. Just answer.

Now, the picture that's floating around the internet is of the Holy Father, when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires, kneeling as several gentlemen extend their hands over him in prayer. One appears to be a Catholic priest and the rest are dressed as laymen. These are invariably reported to be a Catholic priest and Protestant ministers.

So is the Catholic priest doing what the Protestant ministers are? Is he doing something different but not letting on? Is the Archbishop accepting just the prayers of the Protestants but a genuine blessing from the priest? Is the priest faking it, just to blend in, and the Archbishop is playing along for the sake of, what, being friends? Just what is happening here?

I remember during the pontificate of John Paul II being accused of unfaithfulness and schism when I complained of Papal liturgies including some of the same liturgical abuses that the pope himself had condemned.

So, yeah, I'm uncomfortable being in this position. I'm also profoundly disturbed by the dishonesty and lack of integrity of pretty much 9/10ths of the Catholics I know right now.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,285
AthanasiusTheLesser
Member
Offline
AthanasiusTheLesser
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,285
Again, the sort of Protestant ministers involved don't impart blessings-not even according to their own theological tradition. Since I grew up in these sort of traditions, and I earned two theological degrees in a Protestant school of theology, I know what I'm talking about. They do not understand their ministers to have any sort of power to bless, and they lack any sort of sacramental understanding of ordination.

As to being uncomfortable with the entire thing, I can understand that. However, I think we should be very reluctant to read too much into. Furthermore, it is a mischaracterization to say that it involved the reception of a blessing. It is, for those who don't know any better, an understandable mischaracterization, but a mischaracterization nonetheless.

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
J
JDC Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
So I ask you again, when the priest stands with these guys doing whatever it is that they're doing over the kneeling archbishop, what is the priest doing?

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,285
AthanasiusTheLesser
Member
Offline
AthanasiusTheLesser
Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,285
Since the priest, by virtue of his ordination, has the power to impart a blessing, then the priest is offering a blessing, if that is his intent. However, that does not make what the Protesant ministers are doing to a blessing, real, or not. As I've repeatedly said, their theology of ministry involves no such power/authority.

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 699
Likes: 2
J
jjp Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 699
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by JDC
Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by JDC
The correct response here isn't to make excuses. It's to say "Obviously bishops shouldn't be accepting blessings from Protestant ministers. It confuses people. That was a lapse" and have done with it.

Genuine question, what's confusing about it? Maybe I'm not thinking hard enough.

Observe the discussion here and elsewhere about what is or is not meant by the gesture.

Are you confused by it?

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
J
JDC Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
So to clarify, despite the appearance of being simultaneously engaged in an identical action, the players here are, in fact, engaged in radically different actions and the radical difference can reasonably be expected to be understood by the great majority of observers, Catholic and Protestant, such that there is no reasonable chance that these actions could cause any scandal or confusion?

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 699
Likes: 2
J
jjp Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 699
Likes: 2
I'll take that as a yes.

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
J
JDC Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Originally Posted by jjp
Are you confused by it?

Sure. I would go further and say that any honest man of reasonable intellect and faith cannot observe these things without being left with unsettling questions.

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
Likes: 1
E
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
E
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
Likes: 1
Originally Posted by JDC
Originally Posted by Athanasius The L
As someone who grew up in very low-church, evangelical circles, I assure you that the laying on of hands is not understood as a sign of authority over the person upon whom hands are being placed-and certainly not in any sort of Catholic/Orthodox sense... It simply doesn't represent an act of special authority given only to the ordained.
The correct response here isn't to make excuses. It's to say "Obviously bishops shouldn't be accepting blessings from Protestant ministers. It confuses people. That was a lapse" and have done with it.
JDC,

That's certainly one way of looking at it. My own opinion is that Pope Francis is merely drawing a logical conclusion from the following:

Quote
The term laity is here understood to mean all the faithful except those in holy orders and those in the state of religious life specially approved by the Church. These faithful are by baptism made one body with Christ and are constituted among the People of God; they are in their own way made sharers in the priestly, prophetical, and kingly functions of Christ; and they carry out for their own part the mission of the whole Christian people in the Church and in the world. (LG art 31, para. 1)
In other words, the "priesthood of the laity" is not some kooky, offbeat notion that sprang up after V-II, it is enshrined in one of V-II's most important documents.

I can remember being surprised a number of years ago, when a young seminarian I knew and admired told me, with regard to teaching catechism, that "you'll be amazed to find out that you've really learned more from them than they ever did from you." That sounded awfully "liberal" to me at the time, but when I realized that he was right, it really changed my outlook on things.

The medieval concept of authority was that all authority flowed from the top, and this was seen as being a God-given principle, since He was clearly the ultimate authority. This is the philosophical principle upon which most RC praxis is based, and yet one is at pains to show how it conforms to Our Lord's words:

Quote
He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them and those in authority over them are addressed as 'Benefactors'; but among you it shall not be so. Rather, let the greatest among you be as the youngest, and the leader as the servant. For who is greater: the one seated at table or the one who serves? Is it not the one seated at table? I am among you as the one who serves." (Lk.22:25-27)


Because of all this, I really don't find Pope Francis' actions disturbing.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
J
JDC Offline
Member
Offline
Member
J
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 610
Thank you, Father Deacon. You seem to have reached a conclusion opposite to Athanasius. Does not the disagreement between you two demonstrate my point that this act can be expected to confuse people of goodwill inside and outside our Catholic communion?

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
Likes: 1
E
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
Offline
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
E
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,125
Likes: 1
JDC,

I agree that this act will be a source of confusion, but I am confident that Pope Francis is aware of this, and that an explanation will be forthcoming.

Will it satisfy everyone? No.

BTW, what exactly did Athanasius have to say in this regard?

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,760
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,760
Originally Posted by JDC
Originally Posted by Paul B
For us who are taught to see Christ in each person.....who would refuse the prayers or blessing from Christ?
There's maybe a bit of false equivalence in your statement there; prayers are not blessings. Lay people have no place blessing priests. This isn't a kooky kind of RC legalism. The Orthodox would never stand for it either.

Obviously, you would never put your hand on another's head or shoulder if you pray for them. I'm an ordained deacon and when I visit the sick and I pray with/for them, after I explain that I can't give a blessing nor administer the Mystery of Healing, I place my hand on their head (or shoulder should they be wearing a halo or helmet) while I pray. Is that sacrilegious to you? Is there a canon which prohibits it?

What is the scandal of prayer? Is the Pope too good to receive aprayer from a non-ordained person?

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 209
I will venture into this storm to say that I understand JDC's question/quibble.
I also understand the responses of some of you.

This incident doesn't alarm me really, and I don't feel quite as strongly about it, but I think I do see the point that it might have been too open to misunderstanding. As can sometimes be the case with sincere but spontaneous acts, they may be misunderstood. I don't think JDC--or anyone here--is accusing Pope Francis of having rejected authentic teaching on the apostolic ministry. I think the point that others have made in reponse--which I also agree with--is that we can deal and act generously with Protestants without losing sight of those things they may have lost or abandoned.

I have seen great saints raised up within communities wholly bereft of the apostolic ministry, men and women whose lives of service and prayer and sacrifice have conformed them to Our Savior. I confess that some of their lives are luminous and make my own light look pretty pale and weak. It doesn't mean I don't believe in the apostolic office or its importance. I agree--Who wouldn't rejoice over brothers and sisters like them? Who wouldn't be glad to receive their prayers? However, I think I would shy away at the prospect of receiving a blessing from a woman minister, even if I genuinely admired her as a Christian and a disciple. This action would trouble me and I would say thanks but no thanks. I think I can sincerely say and think both things.
However you happen to judge this one action, I don't think we should assume that being troubled by it means a chauvinistic rejection of other Christians.

Page 2 of 11 1 2 3 4 10 11

Moderated by  Irish Melkite 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2023). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5