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Re: Sunday obligation [Re: StuartK] #392328 03/17/13 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
No, but a video of Taft reading it is available at Orientale Lumen Television: Liturgy in the Life of the Church (sample) .

Thanks.

Re: Sunday obligation [Re: Lester S] #392332 03/17/13 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Lester S
You don't go to church, because you "have to." You go to church because you're "compelled to," to the point of wanting to so much, you can't stand to miss another Sunday.

I think that the whole notion of days of obligation missed that point.

Re: Sunday obligation [Re: Anastasia13] #392401 03/18/13 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Anastasia13
Originally Posted by Lester S
You don't go to church, because you "have to." You go to church because you're "compelled to," to the point of wanting to so much, you can't stand to miss another Sunday.

I think that the whole notion of days of obligation missed that point.


I understand what you both mean, and agree. Still, however, there IS a notion, not just in Roman Catholicism which uses the term "obligation", not just in Eastern Catholicism which looks at it pretty much as you've said, but also in Orthodoxy, from what I understand. There, priests frequently use the term "must" or "have to" unless there is a "reasonable excuse" or reason for not attending. Unfortunately, the Roman Catholic Church, somewhere along the way (maybe someone here knows when/where?) equated the "obligation" (or lack of fulfilling it) with the notion of mortal sin. Thus it seems to have morphed into something quite legalistic, in the negative sense of the word. Or, am I wrong about that?

Re: Sunday obligation [Re: J Michael] #392417 03/18/13 08:54 PM
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Having a legalistic "obligation" is not entirely a bad thing, but I sincerely believe it distracts from the true meaning of Sunday Worship. Yes, we want people to be there. But by just stating it as an obligation, then people will be there just to be there. Then what good does that do to them? I know a lot of people who goes to church for the sake of going to church, to have your timecards stamped. I was that way too during a big chunk of my life.

Re: Sunday obligation [Re: searching east] #392418 03/18/13 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by searching east
You can not just tell someone to read a whole book to understand your argument. If you know what the argument is, you should take care to give me links or quotes or at least page numbers to such works. I am not going to read the whole thing just to discuss the matter. Now, someone above seems to quote a portion of something, and I appreciate that.

I find it silly to say one could look at this example and justify disobeying specific canons that exist in one's Church. It makes sense that if the Church started teaching that Jesus did not have two natures that one would openly go against it.
That is a lot different than, can I make up my own mind about if I am obligated to go to a certain parish on Sundays.

also, the idea (whether sometimes true or not) that one can place ones feelings or heart above Tradition or teaching authority, is something that doesn't usually lead to good results. Usually it fosters division and people excusing a lot of things that are not sound.

I am listening and trying to learn why you think like you do though (even just to know how to argue against it). But I would need more help than just being told to read a book. For now I will refrain from saying St. Maximos did or said anything right or wrong (or if he is being properly represented here) since I know little of the context, but I will express doubt that the situation we are talking about here is a good parallel of his situation.


In your post that I originally replied to you noted about how you were inspired by Saints who followed their bishops even if their bishops were wrong. I responded by saying that a lot of Saints defended orthodoxy even against their bishop. I can understand the virtue of humility and submission, but submission need not be blind submission. We are called to oppose our bishops if we find them to be heretics. That was my point in opposition to your point.

Does this relate to this thread? It can. The scope of my statement is broad, it can apply to anything. Yes, we must follow our bishops as they are our leaders. But that following is not blind submission.

Re: Sunday obligation [Re: J Michael] #392422 03/18/13 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by J Michael
Originally Posted by Anastasia13
Originally Posted by Lester S
You don't go to church, because you "have to." You go to church because you're "compelled to," to the point of wanting to so much, you can't stand to miss another Sunday.

I think that the whole notion of days of obligation missed that point.


I understand what you both mean, and agree. Still, however, there IS a notion, not just in Roman Catholicism which uses the term "obligation", not just in Eastern Catholicism which looks at it pretty much as you've said, but also in Orthodoxy, from what I understand. There, priests frequently use the term "must" or "have to" unless there is a "reasonable excuse" or reason for not attending.

My Armenian priest said it is not an obligation that one must come every Sunday but you should come as you can, when you can. He also said that might be why there aren't as many people on non-feast days. I like that though, less fear of endangering my immortal soul if I am mistaken about how tired I am or something... I maybe slightly lax myself, but I the majority of the time.

Last edited by Anastasia13; 03/18/13 09:25 PM.
Re: Sunday obligation [Re: Anastasia13] #399616 10/01/13 07:39 PM
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A question that deals with Eastern Canon Law, Sunday Obligation and its interpretation:
1. I'm a Greek Melkite Catholic and a minor cleric in this Church sui iuris. In my city, there is only one Catholic church of the Byzantine rite (the Greek Melkite Church). The nearest Catholic byzantine rite church (also Greek Melkite) is 120 miles away (that would take around 3 hours by car in my country, which is not USA, so roads are not that good over here).
2. For several serious and grave reasons (this is not open to discussion, believe me, the serious reason is there), it is morally impossible for me to approach my own Melkite pastor (there is only one Melkite priest in the church).
3. However, we have plenty Latin parishes in my city and I even know some Latin priests with whom I get along very well.
4. I may go to a Latin Rite parish - no problem - but this is not the ideal situation. As a minor cleric, I'll be away from my own rite - which is the Byzantine one - for an indefinite time.
5. In this situation, may I go to the Greek Orthodox Church of the city to fulfill my Sunday Obligation in order not to lose contact with my own rite until things change in my Melkite parish (if and when they change? - again, the serious matter is there - I won't go into details, but it is nothing superfluous just like "my church has pews, the chanting is not beautiful enough").

Before simply answering with canon 671 (CCEO), please consider the following:

CCEO - Canon 881 - §1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.

This canon does not say that you are bound to participate in a "Catholic" Divine Liturgy and it is phrased in a way that is not parallel to Can. 1248 §1. of the CIC: "A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass."

Now you may interpret this Canon 881 in two ways:
1) you could have recourse to analogy, and understand that when CCEO says Divine Liturgy, it is implied "Divine Liturgy celebrated by a Church sui iuris in communion with Rome", just like Can. 1248 §1. of the CIC does.
2) That Canon 881 intentionally is not limited to Divine Liturgy in Catholic Churches, because there are some special circumstances when an Eastern Catholic may fulfill Sunday Obligation in an Orthodox Church just to preserve its original ritual heritage, even when there is a Latin rite parish available.

The final question - would my situation qualify as the same situation above so that I could fulfill my Sunday Obligation at an Orthodox Church or should I just forget about my own rite, not educate my children in the Byzatine rite and start going to a Latin rite parish (maybe even asking for a formal change of rites)?

One of the answers would be the following: go to a Latin rite Mass Saturday evening, to fulfill Sunday obligation. This way, Sunday morning would be free to visit the Orthodox Church (but no communion and this would not fulfill Sunday obligation, which was already fulfilled Saturday Evening).

See that I am not sedevacantist, not against the Novus Ordo Mass (though it is not my rite, since I'm not Latin), the thing is I am in a very special situation here, and the only people who offer the Divine Liturgy in the Byzatine tradition in my area are the Orthodox. In this specific situation, should an Eastern Catholic just abandon his rite and adopt the Latin rite? That is my question - but I think I have already answered it by saying that to solve the problem I only need to go to a Saturday Evening Mass at a Latin Rite parish. See that Vatican Council II, in the DECREE ON THE CATHOLIC CHURCHES OF THE EASTERN RITE "ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM", has strongly urged us Eastern Catholics to stay with our rites: "Finally, each and every Catholic, as also the baptized of every non-Catholic church or denomination who enters into the fullness of the Catholic communion, must retain his own rite wherever he is, must cherish it and observe it to the best of his ability [...] 6. All members of the Eastern Rite should know and be convinced that they can and should always preserve their legitimate liturgical rite and their established way of life, and that these may not be altered except to obtain for themselves an organic improvement. All these, then, must be observed by the members of the Eastern rites themselves. Besides, they should attain to an ever greater knowledge and a more exact use of them, and, if in their regard they have fallen short owing to contingencies of times and persons, they should take steps to return to their ancestral traditions."


Sorry for the long post, but the whole matter is complicated. I would appreciate your comments on this subject.

Re: Sunday obligation [Re: J Michael] #399636 10/02/13 12:26 AM
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My Melkite brother,

Firstly, welcome to the Forum. As glad as I am to see any new poster, I'm always particularly delighted to see our numbers here increase.

My answer won't sit well with everyone here - but that's not new (and I won't bother getting into a argument about it with anyone - so, those who disagree with me need not bother trying to draw me into debate on the matter).

I'll offer you two answers (in no particular order of preference or sense that one is a 'better' choice) as a solution until such time as the situation which precludes worshiping in your own temple resolves. The choice between the two is, I think, one that you must make based on your own sensibilities.

1. You worship at Divine Liturgy served in an Orthodox temple and thus fulfill your responsibility "to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of (your) own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the Divine Praises."

2. You worship at a Latin Rite Mass on Saturday evening and, on Sunday morning, you worship at Divine Liturgy in an Orthodox temple, but do not commune out of respect for the Orthodox decision that you are not free to do so because the Churches are not in full communion with one another.

I consider either to be acceptable. Of the second, it cannot be said that one can worship too often and it might salve the concern of those whose scruples demand that the first fails to satisfy an 'obligation'. Of the first, I firmly believe that it satisfies the spirit and intent of the Canon.

The non-choice, in my opinion, is the easy way out - to abandon one's Church and Rite for that of the Latin Church. (Although I'll readily admit that accepting either of the 2 choices above will require that you work hard to explain to your children the why of what you're doing - practicing one's faith is not always easy nor is parenting.)

(If you find yourself conflicted between the 2, there's always the option of regular attendance at the Orthodox temple with occasional visits to the Latin Church to sustain oneself with reception of the Eucharist.)

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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