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Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: Wheelbarrow] #387255 10/15/12 07:22 PM
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The cherubim are not going to roll out a red carpet in the Kingdom at our arrival because we ensured women stayed off the altar. What a severe waste of energy, truly.


So you may think, but by their fruits shall ye know them, and the fruits of women's ordination have been bitter, indeed.

Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: BenjaminRH] #387266 10/15/12 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BenjaminRH
This is one of those matters where you will not be greeted in Heaven joyously, or rejected outright. IN the issues facing the Sons and daughters of God, this is one of those astounding non-issues, the "leavened vs. unleavened bread" debate of the 21st century.

The cherubim are not going to roll out a red carpet in the Kingdom at our arrival because we ensured women stayed off the altar. What a severe waste of energy, truly.

God bless.



... Our distresses are notorious, even though we leave them untold, for now their sound has gone out into all the world. The doctrines of the Fathers are despised; apostolic traditions are set at nought; the devices of innovators are in vogue in the Churches; now men are rather contrivers of cunning systems than theologians; the wisdom of this world wins the highest prizes and has rejected the glory of the cross. Shepherds are banished, and in their places are introduced grievous wolves hurrying the flock of Christ. Houses of prayer have none to assemble in them; desert places are full of lamenting crowds. The elders lament when they compare the present with the past. The younger are yet more to be compassionated, for they do not know of what they have been deprived. All this is enough to stir the pity of men who have learnt the love of Christ; but, compared with the actual state of things, words fall very far short...

Saint Basil the Great


Alexandr

Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: Wheelbarrow] #392200 03/14/13 05:13 PM
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I belong to Mary Immaculate of Lourdes in Newton, Ma. We do not have female altar servers. I can see that there is a stronger sense of community between the servers, especially the Latin Mass community.

Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: Wheelbarrow] #392210 03/14/13 08:05 PM
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Yeah, some RC parishes can be pretty liberal about this idea... At least in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox traditions, we keep to tradition. I don't think we'd be changing this any time soon.

Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: Wheelbarrow] #392213 03/14/13 09:17 PM
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Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

I re-read this thread since it has recently been resurrected and wondered if the difference in how Orders is viewed has something to do with the differences in theology and practice between East and West. There is certainly a big difference between the Augustinian and Cyrillian view of Orders, as we saw in the discussion of the reception by the Chaldean Catholic Church of a defrocked bishop of the Church of the East. Augustine saw Orders as something that has a permanent, personal character that stayed with an individual, while Cyril held that Orders were a function of the Church and the Church could remove one back to the lay state and no trace of clerical functions could remain. We see that in the fact that a laicized priest of the Catholic Church can still perform certain functions in an extreme emergency but a similarly laicized Orthodox priest cannot.

And does this carry over into the thinking and practice of the diaconate? The West sees the diaconate as being Major Orders akin to the priesthood and episcopate: having a permanent character that women cannot have. Is this maybe the reason that there does not seem to be as big a problem with female deaconesses in the limited cases mentioned above? And somewhere on this board it was once mentioned that the Coptic Orthodox Church might have been restoring this order. Fr. Kyrillos?

Bob

Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: Wheelbarrow] #392218 03/14/13 10:33 PM
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Well, I ran across this video, and scratched my head in terms of what I saw. This really just...wow, I don't get it:
http://youtu.be/0mt_TyP4Hw4

Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: 8IronBob] #392221 03/14/13 11:37 PM
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Why is it when feminists rage they almost always want people to use the feminine term. So I say we should call them what they are priestesses NOT priests. There is no such beast in the English language as female priest, it is priestess. Abuse of language it an abuse of power as Joseph Pieper stated.

Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: 8IronBob] #392262 03/16/13 01:34 AM
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theophan Offline
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8IronBob:

Okay, you have a video of a sacrilege. If you check the Internet, there are plenty of them. My sister-in-law, a Catholic nun, sent me a clip of one of her former students who is now an "Eastern bishop" in some sect. Her "ordination" was really a blend of rituals, but apparently they couldn't afford the full set of episcopal vestments and she was vested in a worn, blue epitralhilion, together with a klobuk. Gave me chills. Her "DL" was a mix of East and Weest--I thought it might be because she'd probably never seen a DL.

But what do you think the Good Lord will say when they arrive in front of Him?

That's the question we all have to ask ourselves when we think we can do it better than those to whom He has passed authority through his Apostles and their successors.

Bob

Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: Wheelbarrow] #392266 03/16/13 03:10 AM
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I can tell you one thing, my virus checker does not like women priests. I tried to watch the video listed here and before that lady made it to the stop step I got a message that a malicious URL was detected and closed. so much for womyn priestesses.

Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #392304 03/16/13 10:00 PM
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Maybe I'm missing something, but the Ordination to the Diaconate has this part:

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Divine grace, which always heals what is infirm and completes what is lacking, ordains N., the most devout Subdeacon, as Deacon. Let us therefore pray for him, that the grace of the All-Holy Spirit may come upon him.


The Rite for the Deaconess, omits this part.

Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: 8IronBob] #392306 03/16/13 10:17 PM
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[quote=8IronBob]Well, I ran across this video, and scratched my head in terms of what I saw. This really just...wow, I don't get it:
http://youtu.be/0mt_TyP4Hw4 [/quote]

That is one of the most horrible things to watch. One or two seconds of that and it was enough.

Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: Dr. Eric] #392315 03/16/13 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Maybe I'm missing something, but the Ordination to the Diaconate has this part:

Quote
Divine grace, which always heals what is infirm and completes what is lacking, ordains N., the most devout Subdeacon, as Deacon. Let us therefore pray for him, that the grace of the All-Holy Spirit may come upon him.


The Rite for the Deaconess, omits this part.


No it doesn't.

"ORDER FOR THE ORDINATION OF A WOMAN DEACON

After the completion of the holy Anaphora and the opening of the doors, before the Deacon says, Having commemorated all the Saints,the one to be ordained is brought before the Bishop. As he declaims the invocation, Divine grace, etc., she bows her head, on which he lays his hand."


http://www.anastasis.org.uk/woman_deacon.htm


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: RuthC] #392318 03/17/13 12:08 AM
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Originally Posted by RuthC
Originally Posted by 8IronBob
Well, I ran across this video, and scratched my head in terms of what I saw. This really just...wow, I don't get it:
http://youtu.be/0mt_TyP4Hw4


That is one of the most horrible things to watch. One or two seconds of that and it was enough.


Totally agreed... I only looked as that as an ugly example, and thought about reporting the guy that uploaded that to Youtube. But I thought, well, maybe this would serve as an example of what would be wrong with how today's society wants to think of so called "equal rights to clergy" if you will.

Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: Wheelbarrow] #392476 03/20/13 05:05 AM
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I was reflecting during my recent marriage on this topic. In the Byzantine rite of Crowning, the hymns sung during the three circuits around the "altar" in the centre of the church mirror those sung during the three circuits around the altar during ordinations. My hypothesis is that the table in the church at the wedding service replaced the altar proper, and that originally the coupled circled the altar itself as a kind of "ordination". Given that, as well as extant services for the ordination of deaconesses at the altar with the same rubrics, I think that we can assume that women did go to the altar in the east at least some of time.

Re: Only Men on the altar [Re: Wheelbarrow] #392506 03/20/13 08:03 PM
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Well, I remember sharing those videos from the UGCC visit to Hong Kong a while back in the thread "Weird Iconostases" I think, and there they had altar girls serving, even though it was an RC Church, they were serving in the Eastern Tradition. So I'm not sure what to say about that one.

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