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Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: Roman Interloper] #392412 03/18/13 08:43 PM
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Yes. The Pope's choice of language has generated buzz within economically minded Orthodox circles. Likewise, the vestment issue was not unnoticed either. In Orthodox practice a bishop is a bishop - albeit some are of higher rank - they vest in the same basic manner.I noticed that first hand when Patriarch Bartholomew served at Madison Square Garden some years back.

Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: desertman] #392413 03/18/13 08:46 PM
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I'm excited to see what the Pope plans to do with the office of the Papacy. Its just one of the many things that needs to be ironed out with the Orthodox Church but it is also one of the big ones.. If Pope Francis can fix this one issue during his Pontificate, it would be a smoother (relatively speaking) sailing on the path to reunion. Perhaps we can just have a reunification Ecumenical Council and come up with a different Creed that would add the other issues we have dealt with over time and also resolve the issue of the Filioque. Perhaps different wordings would be more agreeable to both sides and we don't have to go back use the Creed according to which side won the debate, rather just use an entirely new Creed that everyone can agree on.

Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: StuartK] #392414 03/18/13 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by StuartK
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But on the bad side it means that Rome will never intervene in the Ruthenian Church.


Well, I've always said that Rome had something of a moral responsibility for rehabilitating the Eastern Catholics, because it is in large part responsible for their lamentable condition. That said, the Ruthenians made their bed, and now they must lay in it. As for the RDL, in typical Ruthenian fashion, it will quietly be discarded without anyone acknowledging so, and will be replaced by any number of alternatives, according to the inclinations of individual parish priests working to save their churches. But, if everything plays out according to type, at the end of the day the Ruthenian faithful themselves will probably reject the option of fully celebrating the Divine Liturgy according to the Slavonic Recension, whether in English or in Slavonic. Neither will they ever accept celebration of Vespers and Orthros according to the normative texts, but instead will opt for whatever is most convenient and least onerous for them.


Well, err, a..... speaking from the Orthodox side of the great Ruthenian divide, I have to admit that there is some truth in your observations about us. Of course being Orthodox, I don't belong to an organized religion, so perhaps that is a pre-union affliction lingering within today's BBC? wink

Last edited by DMD; 03/18/13 08:50 PM.
Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: ConstantineTG] #392436 03/19/13 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
Perhaps we can just have a reunification Ecumenical Council and come up with a different Creed that would add the other issues we have dealt with over time and also resolve the issue of the Filioque. Perhaps different wordings would be more agreeable to both sides and we don't have to go back use the Creed according to which side won the debate, rather just use an entirely new Creed that everyone can agree on.

Now, that's a novel solution!

The question that comes to my mind, then, is: what, besides the Filioque, do you see as being an issue? It certainly would seem a lot simpler to eliminate this one word, which all scholars agree is a later addition anyway, and embrace the symbol of faith that has had pride of place among various credal formulas for more than 1600 years.

Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: desertman] #392442 03/19/13 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by desertman
From his first speech:
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And now, we take up this journey: Bishop and People. This journey of the Church of Rome which presides in charity over all the Churches.

If this is an allusion to St. Ignatios' comment in his letter to the Roman Church, it is not quite accurate. St. Ignatios says that the Roman Church "presides in charity" but the only georgraphic reference given is to the territory of the Romans (i.e., Italy). Nowhere does St. Igantios say that the Roman Church presides over all the Churches.

Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: desertman] #392443 03/19/13 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by desertman
He is pope BECAUSE he is Bishop of Rome . . .

True, and the Bishop of Alexandria is pope because he is the Bishop of Alexandria.

It is fun to state the obvious. biggrin

Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: ConstantineTG] #392444 03/19/13 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
I'm excited to see what the Pope plans to do with the office of the Papacy. Its just one of the many things that needs to be ironed out with the Orthodox Church but it is also one of the big ones.. If Pope Francis can fix this one issue during his Pontificate, it would be a smoother (relatively speaking) sailing on the path to reunion. Perhaps we can just have a reunification Ecumenical Council and come up with a different Creed that would add the other issues we have dealt with over time and also resolve the issue of the Filioque. Perhaps different wordings would be more agreeable to both sides and we don't have to go back use the Creed according to which side won the debate, rather just use an entirely new Creed that everyone can agree on.

I am not for the creation of a new creed. I like the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, and think it is perfectly sufficient for expressing the Church's faith.

Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: Epiphanius] #392447 03/19/13 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
Perhaps we can just have a reunification Ecumenical Council and come up with a different Creed that would add the other issues we have dealt with over time and also resolve the issue of the Filioque. Perhaps different wordings would be more agreeable to both sides and we don't have to go back use the Creed according to which side won the debate, rather just use an entirely new Creed that everyone can agree on.

Now, that's a novel solution!

The question that comes to my mind, then, is: what, besides the Filioque, do you see as being an issue? It certainly would seem a lot simpler to eliminate this one word, which all scholars agree is a later addition anyway, and embrace the symbol of faith that has had pride of place among various credal formulas for more than 1600 years.


The Nicene Creed expounded on the Apostle's Creed to affirm what the true faith is against heresies. As one commentary on AFR pointed out, even Arius can profess the Apostle's Creed and be truthful to what is stated. If there is a reunion we would need to expound on what "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" is, for one thing. Also we may want to cover the teachings of later councils, also affirming Mary as the Theotokos.

Things would have to be restated, of course this may be more of just saving face for either side (or both) but if one side has difficulty accepting publicly that they are wrong, then just restating certain parts of the Creed where all can agree on would help us move forward.

Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: Apotheoun] #392448 03/19/13 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not for the creation of a new creed. I like the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, and think it is perfectly sufficient for expressing the Church's faith.


There are many more new heresies since the time it was written that we need to address today. Many Protestants can recite the Creed and be truthful in what they profess, yet we say we are not of the same faith. As noted in my comment above, more things need to be expounded to affirm what the One True Faith really believes.

Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: ConstantineTG] #392450 03/19/13 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not for the creation of a new creed. I like the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, and think it is perfectly sufficient for expressing the Church's faith.

There are many more new heresies since the time it was written that we need to address today. Many Protestants can recite the Creed and be truthful in what they profess, yet we say we are not of the same faith. As noted in my comment above, more things need to be expounded to affirm what the One True Faith really believes.

When new heresies arose during the first millennium new councils were called, but the Creed of 381 remained untouched. I have no problem with the Church holding new councils to deal with new heresies or other crises, but I see no reason to create a new creed.

Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: desertman] #392469 03/19/13 10:41 PM
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Has much been said or heard about his meeting tomorrow with the EC Churches?

Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: Pani Rose] #392471 03/19/13 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Pani Rose
Has much been said or heard about his meeting tomorrow with the EC Churches?

I haven't heard anything.

Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: Apotheoun] #392497 03/20/13 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Apotheoun

When new heresies arose during the first millennium new councils were called, but the Creed of 381 remained untouched. I have no problem with the Church holding new councils to deal with new heresies or other crises, but I see no reason to create a new creed.


Here's the thing, the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox profess the same Creed. And even some Protestants too. Yes we all admit we do not believe in the same thing. You don't find a problem in that?

Things that can be improved is adding "ever" to "Virgin Mary".

Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: ConstantineTG] #392501 03/20/13 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
Originally Posted by Apotheoun

When new heresies arose during the first millennium new councils were called, but the Creed of 381 remained untouched. I have no problem with the Church holding new councils to deal with new heresies or other crises, but I see no reason to create a new creed.


Here's the thing, the Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox profess the same Creed. And even some Protestants too. Yes we all admit we do not believe in the same thing. You don't find a problem in that?

Things that can be improved is adding "ever" to "Virgin Mary".

I do not support any changes in the creed, because in the end changes (like when the West added the filioque) will just create new ecclesial divisions.

Re: Pope's shift of emphasis to that of a local bishop? [Re: Apotheoun] #392503 03/20/13 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Apotheoun

I do not support any changes in the creed, because in the end changes (like when the West added the filioque) will just create new ecclesial divisions.


Of course there will be divisions. Those who do not accept the true faith will split.

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