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Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: 8IronBob] #392530 03/21/13 03:22 AM
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Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013. The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy. The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it. Feet firmly rooted in the past.

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #392531 03/21/13 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.


Why is this any surprise? He is simply restating the position of the MP. Unless something changed, it has always been the same. So I guess you are re-offended?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: jjp] #392532 03/21/13 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013. The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy. The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it. Feet firmly rooted in the past.


Union at any cost? And no, it is not the only logical conclusion, just a very one sided conclusion. And it is a complement for a Church to have its "feet firmly rooted in the past."

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: chadrook] #392534 03/21/13 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by chadrook
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.


Why is this any surprise? He is simply restating the position of the MP. Unless something changed, it has always been the same. So I guess you are re-offended?


No surprise. I just thought maybe Pope Francis could have got more than a week in before Met. Hilarion started with this broken record again.


My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.
Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: Paul B] #392535 03/21/13 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul B
Originally Posted by Otsheylnik
From whose perspetive does it work? As Met Alfeyev says, it doesn't work from a Moscow patriarchate point of view. The UGCC is the single largest barrier to the much vaunted meeting between Pope and patriarch.


My brother,

I'm saddened that after after six centuries that this is still such a critical issue. It gives the impression that lording over canonical territory is more pressing than united faith in Christ.
The esteemed Metropolitan has a local view; if he and others looked broader he would see that the issue isn't as focused as he assumes. Orthodoxy has its problems also, the MP and EP won't talk to each other and they also squabble over canonical territory and cause scandal of the Faith. Back at the time of the unions, where was the great Russian Orthodox Church at the time of our suffering? Why didn't they support our monasteries and faithful? The EP was under the thumb of the Moslems, why didn't the MP step up? They had no interest in us then.

Who is "we"?

You've heard of the Golden Horde? The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? The Kingdom of Hungary? Some obstacles in the way of expressing "interest."
Originally Posted by Paul B

Originally Posted by Otsheylnik

I would also argue that the Ruthenian rite (not talking any other eastern Catholics here, just Ukrainian which are the main issue for Alfeyev) has not "worked" well from a Catholic point of view either. Witness the latinisms of the Union of Brest, the enforced celibacy, the revised Divine Liturgy, the split into ACROD, etc.

We Eastern Catholics are well aware of the faults of communion with the large and powerful Church of Rome. And certainly it has been repeated over and over ad nauseam. The Bishop of Rome has compromised much more than the MP with regard to canonical territory. In our own USA the Eastern Church didn't exist but yet it sprung up and we eventually received a bishop, then two bishops. Now we have metropolitan bishops and at least six different Eastern Catholic Church co-exist in Roman dioceses. How well does the MP get along with the Ukrainian Orthodox
The UOC-MP gets along quite fine, hence the "-MP"
Originally Posted by Paul B

or the Armenians?

Fine AFAIK. You heard otherwise?

Originally Posted by Paul B

Yes, we have had unjust restrictions, but mostly we have been our own enemy through lack of charity or lack of our own leadership.

We eastern Catholics generally encourage the Roman See to seek unity with the Orthodox. In return Orthodoxy seeks our destruction. I think it's about time that they respect our faith, for it is the same as yours.

Only if your bishops are in our diptychs.
Originally Posted by Paul B

Orthodoxy defies its spirit of brotherly love when it says we must die. Look beyond the past; look forward and plan for how the Eastern Catholics can be respectfully absorbed into the complete Eastern lung of the united Church.

can you thresh out the difference between absorption and "destruction"?
Originally Posted by Paul B

Demanding preconditions and absolutes infers that the MP has no interest in union. The is no sense in wanting union with a Patriarch who wants to lord over you.

Yes, the lesson of Lyons II and Florence.
Originally Posted by Paul B

It is a total rejection of what Christ taught his disciples.

We have a thread here on Pastor Aeternus somewhere?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: JBenedict] #392536 03/21/13 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by JBenedict
I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

As long as "Western Rite Orthodox" exist, I have trouble seeing the reason for the upset.

Do have the same trouble seeing the difference between duress and accommodation?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: Pavloosh] #392537 03/21/13 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Pavloosh
That Russian bishop is insane if he actually believes that the Pope will abandon the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
What craziness! And he calls himself a Christian?
and why shouldn't his eminence?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #392538 03/21/13 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.

Whose door is that mat in front of, Fr. Deacon?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: Apotheoun] #392540 03/21/13 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.

Evidently I'm just not as easily offended as some people. I wasn't offended when I was a High Church Anglican and Catholics told me that my Church was founded upon adultery and divorce, and that it was devoid of a real priesthood and eucharist. The Catholics who told me that really believed that to be so, and I didn't take offense when they said what they believed. As a Catholic I don't take offense when some of my Orthodox friends tell me that Catholic sacraments are devoid of grace, and that the Catholic Church is in heresy. It is what they believe, and I see no reason to be personally offended by their beliefs.

By the way, now when I talk to Anglicans, I tell them that I don't believe that their priesthood is valid or that their sacraments (other than baptism) are real. If they are personally offended too bad, because for me it is a matter of belief. I suppose, if I didn't believe what I was telling them, I would still be an Anglican.
which explains why you are not: you believe what you say, and say what you believe. Unambiguously.

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: jjp] #392541 03/21/13 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

Why?
Originally Posted by jjp

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013.

Why? Have canonical jurisdictions and boundaries been done away with?
Originally Posted by jjp

The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy.

Oh? How's that.
Originally Posted by jjp

The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it.

Not quite.
Originally Posted by jjp

Feet firmly rooted in the past.

Better than wobbly legs disconnected from their past.

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: Fr. Deacon Lance] #392542 03/21/13 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by chadrook
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.


Why is this any surprise? He is simply restating the position of the MP. Unless something changed, it has always been the same. So I guess you are re-offended?


No surprise. I just thought maybe Pope Francis could have got more than a week in before Met. Hilarion started with this broken record again.

I don't recall exactly: was Major Archbishop enthroned as Major Archbishop or Patriarch? L'viv or in Kiev?

Btw, I noticed the inaugral mass (is that the term now?) had Russian, but I didn't see any Ukrainian. Did I miss it?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: IAlmisry] #392544 03/21/13 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

Why?


Because he's a learned man. No other reason having to do with churches having a presence in another church's cannonical territory.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013.

Why? Have canonical jurisdictions and boundaries been done away with?


See above.

Originally Posted by jjp

The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy.

Oh? How's that.
[/quote]

Because they would all be Ukranian Christians united in one church.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp

The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it.

Not quite.


Quite. Just own it, so much better to be straight forward. The holy monks on Mt Athos would agree, there's no shame in not desiring unity if it is based on principle, misguided though it may be. Hot or cold is always better than lukewarm.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp

Feet firmly rooted in the past.

Better than wobbly legs disconnected from their past.


When the past is one of pain and bitterness, not at all. Wobbly legs can strengthen. It takes work and a desire to accomplish, which I see little evidence of.

On the flip side... Give the Russians Ukraine in return for communion and call them all Catholic... Who cares? Keeping two ancient, holy and apostolic churches separated over a local spat is silly.

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: chadrook] #392545 03/21/13 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by chadrook
Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013. The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy. The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it. Feet firmly rooted in the past.


Union at any cost? And no, it is not the only logical conclusion, just a very one sided conclusion. And it is a complement for a Church to have its "feet firmly rooted in the past."


What cost?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: jjp] #392546 03/21/13 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

Why?


Because he's a learned man. No other reason having to do with churches having a presence in another church's cannonical territory.

We already have the thoughts of one learned man on the matter, namely Metropolitan Hilarion's. Any reason we should abandon his eminence's for anything Met. Gennadios has to say on the matter?

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013.

Why? Have canonical jurisdictions and boundaries been done away with?


See above.

Anything in particular I should be sifting for?

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy.

Oh? How's that.

Because they would all be Ukranian Christians united in one church.

So all the Latin ordinaries will pack up and leave?

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it.

Not quite.

Quite. Just own it, so much better to be straight forward. The holy monks on Mt Athos would agree, there's no shame in not desiring unity if it is based on principle, misguided though it may be. Hot or cold is always better than lukewarm.

It seems all the complaining is that the ROC is too hot for some people, and it's not going to let cold water be thrown on it for someone else's idea of unity that was rejected back in 1441.

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

Feet firmly rooted in the past.

Better than wobbly legs disconnected from their past.

When the past is one of pain and bitterness, not at all.

When you walk down a path of pain and bitterness, you learn not to wander off down it again. Or you should.
Originally Posted by jjp

Wobbly legs can strengthen. It takes work and a desire to accomplish, which I see little evidence of.

perhaps you just don't desire what you see.

Originally Posted by jjp

On the flip side... Give the Russians Ukraine in return for communion and call them all Catholic... Who cares? Keeping two ancient, holy and apostolic churches separated over a local spat is silly.

What local spat would that be?

We don't believe in "two" apostolic churches, we confess the Faith in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Antiquity plays no role in it whatsoever.

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su [Re: IAlmisry] #392549 03/21/13 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by JBenedict
I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

As long as "Western Rite Orthodox" exist, I have trouble seeing the reason for the upset.

Do have the same trouble seeing the difference between duress and accommodation?


You think the Ukranian Catholic Church exists today because its members are under duress?

Last edited by JBenedict; 03/21/13 02:24 PM.
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