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Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp
Are you talking in circles on purpose or does it just happen on accident??
I don't know: did you open your rabbit hole under Met. Gennadios' name on purpose?

I think you do it on purpose, but I can't understand what you think it accomplishes. That's not a question, so feel free to ignore.

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Originally Posted by jjp
You didn't answer my question.
There is no answer to your question: within Orthodoxy all the bishops of Ukraine are under the Metropolitan of Kiev and All Ukraine, because they are in communion with him and the rest of Orthodoxy.

If you can't answer why Latin ordinaries would need to leave Ukraine after establishing communion with them then why do you propose it?

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...Because they would all be Ukranian Christians united in one church.

So all the Latin ordinaries will pack up and leave?

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Under the Vatican, the Major Archbishop (who claims he is a patriarch, despite what his supreme pontiff says) has his bishops in Ukraine and elsewhere outside of Urkaine, there's a separate bishop in Zakarpatia directly under the Vatican, alongside a host of Latin bishops-including one for Kiev, and for good measure an Armenian bishop in L'viv under a catholicos in Lebanon, although they are all in communion with each other. If you want a justification/excuse for why that is (dis)organized, you will have to ask their "font of unity" for it.

How Catholics organize themselves in Ukraine is irrelevant. Their presence would suddenly be no problem to you if they organized themselves in a manner you approved of? The obfuscation is growing tiresome to weed through.

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Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp
You don't have to read so much into it. What's the point of kicking out all the Catholics, Latin or otherwise, only to then unite with them after the fact? Let's call a spade a spade, unity to the Russians means becoming Orthodox, period.
The Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils set that standard: why should the Russians-or any Orthodox Catholic-abandon it?
You didn't answer my question.
Yes, I did. You just didn't like the answer.

Only due to its evasiveness. Why no direct answers? I am purposely keeping these separate quote strings intact so that onlookers can see my documented attempts to get a straight response. I am realizing that it is an exercise in futility.

Quote
Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
No spat: we're all agreed that at present Ukraine belongs to the Patriarchate of Moscow.
You aught to let Met. Hilarion in on that, otherwise his comments about expansion will seem awkwardly out of place.
Oh? What particular comments would seem "awkwardly out of place", as His Eminence points to expansion-or even the existence-of the UGCC as being "awkardly out of place."

His Eminence does not take into account Orthodox bishops "awkwardly out of place" next door to the Vatican. Since you refuse to connect my dots, that is why I originally wondered aloud what Metropolitan Gennadios thought about it.

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp
Then why the worry about canonical territories?
The good order of the Church (taxis) set up by the Apostles and Fathers.

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Orthodox bicker about these issues all the time (OCA vis-a-vis the GOA and ROC) without breaking communion.

So did the Apostles and Fathers.
Originally Posted by jjp
That alone is no excuse here.
I gave you the reason. You will have to ask someone else for excuses. Do be specific as to what you want excused.

The reason that the Orthodox bicker amongst themselves about canonical territories is because the Apostles did? What a wonderful way to honor their legacy.

Quote
Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp
Because you see only the Orthodox Church as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and any outside of it (including other Orthodox) as outside the faith. Union, therefore, means coming to your side of the fence.

Again, let's just call a spade a spade, it makes things so much simpler.
I do nothing but, and I don't even have to ask Met. Gennadios.
That isn't what I suggested asking him.
I suggest you first tell us-spit it out-what a Metropolitan in Italy has anything to do with Ukraine: you are aware that they are two separate nations (and Churches), no?

I thought they were a part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Unless that is just the Russians now?

The more you eat your cake, the less of it you have left.

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Well, that wasn't put as felicitously as one might have, but in essence, there is truth there. The unfortunate part is Pavloosh doesn't quite understand Metropolitan Hiliarion's job, nor did he correctly interpret what Metropolitan Hilarion said. But, if you read the article the way Pavloosh did, then a hypothetical "insane" is just rhetorical hyperbole.

On the other hand, you, like the Church of Moscow, refuses to recognize Orthodox complicity in the suppression of the Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine, Czechoslovakia and Romania in the late 1940s, insisting that the kangaroo synods arranged by the NKVD were authentic expressions of Greek Catholic sentiment. That I do consider a cavalier disregard for the truth, and a fundamentally un-Christian act.

Then there is your insistence that the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (and, I would assume, the Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholic, the Romanian Greek Catholic and the Melkite Greek Catholic Churches--all exist because of "compulsion". That shows either ignorance of the complex history of uniatism (and I don't think you are stupid or ignorant), a just a determination to ignore history and indulge in stale and factually incorrect polemics for the sake of making points. Either way, it's not a pretty picture.

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Now, a rather more objective and ecumenical tone can be found in the writing of David Bentley Hart's The Myth of Schism. [fatherdavidbirdosb.blogspot.com]

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Wish you'd speak everyday English so you could be understood.
What are you trying to say?
Also, please tell us what Met. Hillarion's job actually entails and what is the correct interpretation of what he said. Seems to me that he lives in LaLa Land!

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"On the other hand, you, like the Church of Moscow, refuses to recognize Orthodox complicity in the suppression of the Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine, Czechoslovakia and Romania in the late 1940s, insisting that the kangaroo synods arranged by the NKVD were authentic expressions of Greek Catholic sentiment. That I do consider a cavalier disregard for the truth, and a fundamentally un-Christian act."

I think the MP knows exactly what it is doing. But there seems to be a rather large gray area in the concept of suppression on their part. It is just hard for the Catholics to stomach to fact that the MP does not like the Unia.

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That isn't really hard for me to stomach that Moscow doesn't like the unia.

It is hard to stomach the lack of sensitivity to the UGCC's experience of suppression and persecution. Indeed, it is still possible to hear Orthodox polemicists referring to the 'synods' that dissolved the EC churches, for example, as somehow settling contemporary disputes over church property, and I think that really should shock and scandalize everyone, including Orthodox believers. I think Moscow really does need to acknowledge the suffering and witness of this church and express some regret for the lack of sensitivity and even complicity of some of its own members. On the other hand, the property disputes really are lamentable and certainly don't vindicate the EC's. Indeed, if the MP's worries since the 80's and 90's has been precisely a muscular and expansionist Catholic presence in its homeland, then it seems fair to ask if the posture and conduct of the UGCC hasn't sometimes confirmed these fears.

I think that Moscow would certainly appreciate some acknowledgment that the situation is irregular. Ideally, that would come from not only Rome but also from the UGCC. Restored communion between 'sister churches' would not include a large, Ukranian church either somehow under the Roman partiarchate or in its own jurisdiction separate from the unity of other Christians in Ukraine. A church with restored communion on the global scale would presumably require one Ukranian church, (including Latins and the other two Orthodox jurisdictions there.)

We are certainly 'not there yet' and perhaps very, very far from it, but that might be a helpful way to contextualize the various smaller decisions and deliberations as they negotiate this strained and imperfect reality.




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One warning and one only - if the tone and tenor of discussion doesn't significantly improve, this thread - which is far removed at this point from being either news or an analysis of same (and is verging on heading to the Town Hall forum) will be locked.

It is, if no one on either side of this argumentation has noted it, the Paschal Season in all of the Apostolic Churches and we are, none of us, far removed from Forgiveness Sunday, on which we begged forgiveness of one another and, following Christ's lead, forgave one another.

Whether the historical concept of the Ukrainian Church(es) being ecclesiastically subject to the Russian patriarchate ought to continue given Ukraine's present status, in which it no longer politically owes fealty to Russia, is an example par excellance of the intertwining of nationhood, nationality, ethnicity, culture, and faith that has and continues to bedevil our Churches. That mankind cannot back away from disputation over who among its unworthy selves ought to be the controlling entity in an enterprise which is God's is a sad commentary on our failure to recognize and accept that we are little but temporal caretakers and that the 100% Shareholder cannot be pleased at the time devoted to such machinations versus that which could be devoted to the infinitely more important and mandated task of bringing people to Him.

Many years,

Neil


"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
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However, forgiveness appears to be a one-way street. The UGCC has reached out to the ROC for forgiveness, yet the ROC has turned a deaf ear.

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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
One warning and one only - if the tone and tenor of discussion doesn't significantly improve, this thread - which is far removed at this point from being either news or an analysis of same (and is verging on heading to the Town Hall forum) will be locked.

It is, if no one on either side of this argumentation has noted it, the Paschal Season in all of the Apostolic Churches and we are, none of us, far removed from Forgiveness Sunday, on which we begged forgiveness of one another and, following Christ's lead, forgave one another.

Whether the historical concept of the Ukrainian Church(es) being ecclesiastically subject to the Russian patriarchate ought to continue given Ukraine's present status, in which it no longer politically owes fealty to Russia, is an example par excellance of the intertwining of nationhood, nationality, ethnicity, culture, and faith that has and continues to bedevil our Churches. That mankind cannot back away from disputation over who among its unworthy selves ought to be the controlling entity in an enterprise which is God's is a sad commentary on our failure to recognize and accept that we are little but temporal caretakers and that the 100% Shareholder cannot be pleased at the time devoted to such machinations versus that which could be devoted to the infinitely more important and mandated task of bringing people to Him.

Many years,

Neil

I really hoped that this website would be the one last place that open dialog could take place. I understand a desire for a certain civility but at what cost? When a subject comes up that there are distinct differences this seems to always be the result.

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Originally Posted by Pavloosh
However, forgiveness appears to be a one-way street. The UGCC has reached out to the ROC for forgiveness, yet the ROC has turned a deaf ear.
Oh? What are you referring to?

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This is a good example of what I am referring to:

http://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/World.php?id=2961

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Oh? What are you referring to?

Well here is the current head of the UGCC from the article posted:

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I would like very much to visit him [Patriarch Kyril] and hold a personal meeting with him. I am convinced that in peacefully and openly communicating with each other, we can relieve any tension,” Archbishop Sviatoslav said in an interview. “Our Church has voiced its readiness and openness for a dialogue ever since it emerged from the underground.

The article also mentions past leaders of the UGCC expressing the exact same thing.

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"I think that today, we should heal the wounds rather than irritate and deepen them. One can heal the wounds of our memory only with mutual forgiveness,” Archbishop Sviatoslav remarked. “Therefore, as for any our brethren or neighbors who wounded us or were wounded by us, the best way to communicate is to be open in a brotherly dialogue, be open to the purification of our memory, to ask for forgiveness and to forgive."

Why can't the ROC and UOC-MP express the same sentiments? Asking forgiveness is the true sign of a Christian. Mutual forgiveness is a wonderful thing and with the Great Fast just starting for those on the Julian Calendar (both Orthodox and Greek Catholic) it would be a wonderful time for mutual forgiveness.

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Originally Posted by Pavloosh
This is a good example of what I am referring to:

http://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/World.php?id=2961
This?
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He recalled the comments of his predecessor Cardinal Myroslav Ivan, who said, “We forgive and ask for forgiveness.”
“It was a very deep call to reconciliation on his part,” the archbishop explained. “It was in the 1990s, at the time of the strongest confrontation, particularly in western Ukraine. There was the will for reconciliation on our part.”
As I recall at the time, actions were speaking louder than that "very deep call to reconciliation." Particularly odd, as the cardinal never lived in the Soviet Union until its final months, long after-
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Under Soviet rule, Eastern Catholic priests and faithful were routinely arrested, martyred for the faith, or generally forced to go underground. Church property was usurped by the Orthodox Church and Catholics operated under heavy restrictions.
None of which isn't equally, if not more, applicable to the Orthodox. That's glossed over, along with the Revindication Campaigns of the Second Polish Republic doing the same before the Soviets took over. That includes "Church property was usurped": no Church owned any property in the Soviet Union (proletariat ownership of the means of production/abolition of private property and all that). Did the Orthodox Church take advantage of what Churches the Soviets allowed to be open for Divine Services? Sure-would you prefer them to have been used for barns and barracks or museums of atheism, as many were? Much of the property still has not been returned. IIRC, we had a thread on that fact on the Pochaiv Lavra.

The situation has more complexities than are being admitted here (and touching on the "sanity" of His Eminence over support in the Vatican for Major Arbp. Shevchuk). Such as:
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When we asked UOC-KP Bishop of L'viv Andrii (Horak) why he thought that the Vatican did not counter Patriarch Aleksi' s accusations, he replied: 'The Vatican never complained in 1946 either. Maybe because it is the promoter of the accusations.' Patriarch Filaret of the UOC-KP explained to us that 'The Vatican's current policy is to leave the Greek Catholics alone. They are a barrier to dialogue with the Moscow Patriarchate and therefore the Vatican is not supporting Uniatism.' Maintaining links with Moscow, he thought, was also the motivation behind not highlighting the activities of the UOC-KP in Galicia: 'That would mean recognising that the UOC-KP is the largest Orthodox jurisdiction in western Ukraine and upsetting the Moscow Patriarchate.'
Greek Catholic Bishop Yulian Gbur confirmed the Vatican's reluctance to involve other Orthodox jurisdictions in the dispute over western Ukraine: 'Rome allows us to talk only to the Moscow Patriarchate, because the others are not canonical - although they are closer to us.' L'viv Roman Catholic priest Fr Andrzej Legowicz confirmed this. He explained to us that the Vatican would have to come to an official agreement with the Moscow Patriarchate that the conflict with the Greek Catholics was over before it could make a public statement to that effect.
Several of our interviewees felt that the Greek Catholics had been abandoned by Rome. The head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church's Department for External Church Relations Ihor Ozhievs'kyi cited to us the absence of direct financial support for his church from the Vatican. The funding which had permitted the extensive church construction we had observed in L'viv and Ternopil' oblasti had come, he said, from two German-based Catholic charities, 'Aid to the Church in Need' and 'Renovabis', as well as from the US Catholic Bishops' Conference - but not from Rome. The Vatican, he maintained, was terrified 'that we will destroy the system which has developed within the Catholic Church', since in effect the Greek Catholic
Church was a 'local church', and the Catholic Church 'does not recognise local churches'.
In Patriarch Filaret's view, the Greek Catholics already sensed that 'Rome does not need them any more'. Greek Catholic village priest Fr Ihor Fedorishin told us that in his view the Roman Catholic Church was a quite separate structure. The Greek Catholic union with the Vatican, he maintained, was purely symbolic, 'just as the Moscow Patriarchate is symbolically subordinate to Constantinople'...
Whatever its policy towards them might be, the Vatican's failure to lend public support to the Greek Catholics in Galicia is being rewarded by complete silence over Roman Catholic activity in central Ukraine. According to the Ukrainian Centre for Economic and Political Studies, the Roman Catholic Church had 324 registered religious communities in Zhytomir, Vinnytsa and Khmel'nyts'kyi oblasti as of 1 January 2000 (the Greek Catholic figure for the same area is just 29). Viktor Bondarenko told us that the Roman Catholics were the fastest growing of the traditional churches in Ukraine. Surprisingly, Patriarch Filaret assured Keston that the Roman Catholic Church was ministering to 'its own people' in these regions. He did not complain about this activity precisely because it was being conducted among Poles, he said, although earlier in our interview with him he mentioned that in Ukraine Roman Catholics were 'trying to attract Orthodox'. Although the language of Roman Catholics in L'viv is frequently Polish, Fr Legowicz told us that as far west as the city of Ternopil' - where we noted that a large Roman Catholic church was being constructed - masses are celebrated in Ukrainian and not Polish. Archbishop Mitrofan (Yurchuk) of the UOC-MP told us that the Roman Catholic Church was very active in Ukraine and brought in numerous missionaries from Poland. When he agreed that most Poles in Ukraine were by now completely russified (or
ukrainified), we asked him why the UOC-MP did not complain about Roman Catholic activity in the country's central regions. 'We have no problems with Roman Catholics' , he replied...
Declining to name specific regions, Viktor Bondarenko complained to us that his national committee did not have control over local committees for religious affairs, 'which is totally wrong because we now see blocs forming, uniting local authorities with the dominant church in the area'. It appears that Roman Catholics get a raw deal from the local authorities in Galicia, where Greek Catholicism predominates. On 23 September an elderly parishioner in the Roman Catholic cathedral in central L'viv told us, with obvious resentment, that all but two of the city's 36 pre-Second World War Roman Catholic churches had been 'given to autocephalists, Greek Catholics and Baptists. The authorities did not return them to us even though we wanted them.' The Greek Catholic Church currently holds more than 40 churches in the city.
According to Zhaborinskaya, the large neo-Gothic former Roman Catholic church of SS Olga and Elizabeth near L'viv railway station has been given to the Greek Catholics, while a former Roman Catholic church two doors up from the UOC-MP church in L'viv has been taken over by a community of Seventh-Day Adventists. Fr Andrzej Legowicz confirmed to us that a Roman Catholic community was given permission to celebrate mass in SS Olga and Elizabeth in the mid-1990s, but that this decision was subsequently overturned by the local authorities, who then handed the church to the Greek Catholics. Although Fr Legowicz claimed not to know about the Adventist church, he added that the Roman Catholics had failed to recover their former seminary building in L'viv - now a Greek Catholic church - and that the
present Roman Catholic seminary was approximately 20 miles outside the city. Elsewhere in L'viv oblast', he said, the Roman Catholic community in the village of Riashne had been refused permission to build for the past five years, while in the village of Komame the Greek Catholics had taken all three church buildings and the Roman Catholics were now obliged to celebrate mass in the village cemetery. In his view the L'viv authorities were 'trying to control the number of Roman Catholic churches'...In L'viv, he claimed, 'we do
not have any Roman Catholics'. Abbot Venedikt (Aleksichuk) suggested to us that two churches in central L'viv were enough for the city's Roman Catholics since 'there are no Poles here any more'. We also encountered a cool attitude towards the Roman Catholic Church at the 'Anisiya' church credit union, where general manager Volodymyr Sydorovs'kyi explained that the union 'works with all traditional confessions of the region' - but not Roman Catholics: 'only churches of the eastern rite' .
In fact, the large number of former Roman Catholic church buildings in the city testifies to a tradition established during recent centuries of Polish rule, curtailed when Soviet troops occupied the region during the Second World War and those of Polish nationality were deported westwards in Operation Wisla. Sixty years on, however, resentment of former Polish domination coupled with fear of a resurgence of polonisation fuels both hostility towards Roman Catholicism - which many Ukrainians fuse with Polish identity - and nationalist feeling within the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church as it seeks to preserve its own identity.
According to Fr Legowicz, Roman and Greek Catholics used to attend each others' churches before the Second World War, but now Greek Catholic priests sometimes forbid their parishioners to attend Roman Catholic churches: 'The Greek Catholics are viewed as a Ukrainian church, the Roman Catholics as Polish.' This clear demarcation of nationality was reflected in the words of one woman leaving the Roman Catholic cathedral in L'viv: she apologetically remarked to us that she liked the church very much and attended it 'even though' she was Ukrainian...The village priest Fr Ihor Fedorishin later told us that he believed the latinisation of Greek Catholics to be the aim of Poland rather than of the Vatican, 'because then it will be easier for Poland to take this territory'.
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/rss/29-3_207.pdf
Although over a decade old, I don't know if it can be said that it is dated.

But back to your "example":
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“I think that today, we should heal the wounds rather than irritate and deepen them. One can heal the wounds of our memory only with mutual forgiveness,” Archbishop Sviatoslav remarked. “Therefore, as for any our brethren or neighbors who wounded us or were wounded by us, the best way to communicate is to be open in a brotherly dialogue, be open to the purification of our memory, to ask for forgiveness and to forgive.”
I would be very curious as to what wounds the Major Archbishop admits to and is confessing. As to the Patriarch
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Defending one thing, it was necessary to give somewhere else. Were there any other organizations, or any other people among those who had to carry responsibility not only for themselves but for thousands of other fates, who in those years in the Soviet Union were not compelled to act likewise? Before those people, however, to whom the compromises, silence, forced passivity or expressions of loyalty permitted by the leaders of the church in those years caused pain, before these people, and not only before God, I ask forgiveness, understanding and prayers.
"A long walk to church: a contemporary history of Russian orthodoxy." Nathaniel Davis p. 84.

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Nice try! All your post did was to skirt the real issue.

Apparently, the selfrighteous Moscow based ROC will never ask for forgiveness. It's mentality is still that of the middle ages.

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Why is this thread posted on two different topics. Administrator, shouldn't it be removed from this one?

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