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Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: Epiphanius] #392424 03/18/13 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Epiphanius

BTW, what exactly did Athanasius have to say in this regard?


To clarify, I was referring to the poster on this thread using that name.

Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: Paul B] #392425 03/18/13 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul B
For us who are taught to see Christ in each person.....who would refursse the prayers or blessing from Christ?


Originally Posted by Paul B
I'm an ordained deacon and when I visit the sick and I pray with/for them, after I explain that I can't give a blessing


Can you reconcile these two statements, Father Deacon? I can't see why if Protestant Ministers are Christ enough to give a blessing, a Catholic deacon is not.

Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: Ray S.] #392426 03/18/13 11:39 PM
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Let me clarify....in my first statement I used "blessing" in the generic sense.

In the full context of my second statement I used "Blessing" in the formal sense.

In the same way one could use church in the generic sense or "Church" in the formal ecclesiastical sense.

I think your splitting hairs.

Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: Paul B] #392427 03/19/13 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul B
I think your splitting hairs.


Do you? Well, I think most of the conservative portion of the Catholic world is doing shameful mental acrobatics to avoid seeing what's plainly there. I think Eastwardlean suggests an interesting mental exercise. If the Protestant minister had been a woman, I wonder how this would have played out.

Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: JDC] #392428 03/19/13 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JDC
... One of the first things I read from our new Pope was a most impressive consideration on the necessity of preaching Christ and His cross without regard for even the most serious human consequences. I don't know how to square this with a little comfortable play acting with a Protestant idea that apostolic authority is a fiction.

I really don't think this constitutes "play acting," as I'm sure the Pope knows what he's doing.

As for the question of who has the authority to give a blessing, I would understand that to be according to both a) their degree of participation in the priesthood of Christ (i.e. baptized Christian, deacon, presbyter, bishop) and b) their relationship to the person being blessed, such as a parent to a child (this also includes spiritual parenthood, which would pertain to both Protestant ministers, and to the Pope himself--otherwise, his blessing would be no more significant than that of any other bishop).

Furthermore, this doesn't exclude a child blessing a parent, and I would argue that this is what we do when we tell the priest, "and with your spirit."

Last edited by Epiphanius; 03/19/13 12:30 AM. Reason: amplification
Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: Ray S.] #392430 03/19/13 02:40 AM
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By the way, I didn't mean to suggest that I wouldn't accept a woman minister praying over me in any way--just that I think I'd balk at getting a formal (priestly) blessing from one.

I believe it's tough to draw fixed markers, but I think if you can think of something as ' informally praying together' then it is probably ok. But sometimes discomfort can be warranted and the people one is praying with may not always understand that.




Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: Irish Melkite] #392445 03/19/13 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
That the Pope perceives spiritual benefit in the prayers of clergy of other faiths does not seem to me to be an indication of anything other than the humility to acknowledge that there is good in all peoples and that spiritually good persons abound in other religions, as well as our own.

Personally, I have no doubt that I would be spiritually enriched and truly blessed were our beloved friend and brother, Pastor Thomas, to lay hands on and pray a blessing on me - and I'm far from being a syncretist.

Many years,

Neil

I guess the fact that I am a former Protestant makes me sensitive to issues of this nature. Needless to say, I have no interest in attending Protestant Churches or receiving blessings from Protestant ministers. It is nothing personal of course. I avoid such things for dogmatic reasons.

Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: Ray S.] #392446 03/19/13 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray S.
Things like this:
children's Mass in superhero robes continue to happen in the RCC. Do you think they will get better or worse under Pope Francis?

Hope springs eternal.

Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: Ray S.] #392865 03/28/13 11:08 PM
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Pope Francis became the 1st Pope in history to wash the feet of women during Holy Thursday:
Pope washes feet of prisoners—male and female—at Holy Thursday liturgy

Quote
As part of the traditional liturgy of Holy Thursday, at the Mass of the Lord’s Supper, the Pope washed the feet of 12 young detainees: 10 male and 2 female. He thereby disregarded the liturgical rules of the Church, which specify that the celebrant should wash the feet of males in the congregation, in a gesture that recalls Christ’s service to his own 12 apostles.


Can we expect women priest next?

Last edited by Ray S.; 03/28/13 11:09 PM.
Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: Ray S.] #392866 03/28/13 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Ray S.
Pope Francis became the 1st Pope in history to wash the feet of women during Holy Thursday:
Pope washes feet of prisoners—male and female—at Holy Thursday liturgy

Quote
As part of the traditional liturgy of Holy Thursday, at the Mass of the Lord’s Supper, the Pope washed the feet of 12 young detainees: 10 male and 2 female. He thereby disregarded the liturgical rules of the Church, which specify that the celebrant should wash the feet of males in the congregation, in a gesture that recalls Christ’s service to his own 12 apostles.


Can we expect women priest next?


I hope people realize that the washing of the feet is about the person washing the feet, not those whose feet are being washed. The Apostles didn't become Apostles or Bishop or whatever one would like to think about something that is exclusive to men, because they had their feet washed. Christ called on them (the Apostles) to follow His example to be a servant to ALL.

Now if we think that those being washed has some significance related to the clerical state, then really we should only have bishops washing the feet of seminarians.

Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: Ray S.] #392868 03/28/13 11:44 PM
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That the Holy Father washed the feet of two female detainees is hardly the same thing as calling for the presbyteral ordination of women.

As some have pointed out, a number of bishops have done the same, but none have advocated women's ordination.

Recall the "scandal" of Mary's washing the feet of Jesus in the home of Simon the Leper (aka Simon the Pharisee), to whom did this offend?

The Holy Father, Francis, is certainly embracing the "greatest" of the papal titles- the servant of the servants of God.

Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: Ray S.] #392870 03/29/13 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Ray S.
Can we expect women priests next?

Who knows. I suppose we will just have to wait and see what other traditions the pope decides to break.

Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: Deacon John Montalvo] #392872 03/29/13 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Deacon John Montalvo
That the Holy Father washed the feet of two female detainees is hardly the same thing as calling for the presbyteral ordination of women.

As some have pointed out, a number of bishops have done the same, but none have advocated women's ordination.



Agreed.

I doubt Pope Francis meant to do anything earth shattering. Frankly, that there is such a law was something of a surprise to me. Frankly, even then I would have thought of it as a basically 'dead' law, except that the people who invoke it do so with great insistence. Though I understand that Christ washed the feet of the Twelve, I don't think in the foot washing there is really much at all to do about holy orders--after all, it's not as if receiving it is limited to those who are ordained.

Incarnate God washing feet of the sinners whose Master He was
vs.
bishop or priest washing feet of women
Which is the greater condescension?

In many places in the ancient church it was an important rite. St. Ambrose talks about it as one of the chief mysteries of the church.



Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: Ray S.] #392873 03/29/13 12:15 AM
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I think he intended to do something earth shattering. Breaking tradition is always an act of iconoclasm.

Re: Things Worse Or Better Under Pope Francis? [Re: ConstantineTG] #392874 03/29/13 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG

Now if we think that those being washed has some significance related to the clerical state, then really we should only have bishops washing the feet of seminarians.


Indeed, 'if we think that those being washed has some significance related to the clerical state,' then seminarians shouldn't really get their feet washed either--only clerics.



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